W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > June 2011

RE: [css3-speech] reading list-style markers

From: Belov, Charles <Charles.Belov@sfmta.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 15:06:47 -0700
Message-ID: <E17F75B6E86AE842A57B4534F82D0376CD2AD8@MTAMAIL.muni.sfgov.org>
To: "Daniel Weck" <daniel.weck@gmail.com>, "fantasai" <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Cc: "www-style list" <www-style@w3.org>
 

Daniel Weck wrote on Monday, June 06, 2011 1:07 PM
> 
> I'd be cautious about forcing user-agents to generate speech 
> cues that are not, per-say, intrinsic to the authored 
> content. For example, well- known structures such as lists 
> and tables are usually exposed via screen-readers using 
> special audio/speech cues (with configurable verbosity to 
> meet user needs / preferences). Extra cues may also be 
> generated to facilitate non-linear navigation of complex 
> information structures (this is clearly out-of-scope in CSS, 
> but it does overlap with the "begin/end level" concept you 
> are describing). We can't possibly enumerate every possible 
> way to announce well-defined structure points. So I agree 
> with Fantasai about inserting additional text at the right 
> places (should this be the author's wish). I assume you 
> implied using CSS-generated content, right ? I also agree 
> with not reading the shape name before each list item (proper 
> reply in a separate email, coming soon). Regards, Daniel

Even if CSS does not dictate how to read the different levels, 
I'd still like to see something explicitly requiring or at least
recommending that the user-agent allow the user to differentiate 
beginnings and endings of levels in some manner.

"For these list item styles, the user-agent defines (possibly 
based on user preferences) what equivalent phrase is spoken or 
what audio cue is played. List items with graphical bullets 
are therefore announced appropriately in an implementation-
dependent manner."]

does not appear to reference levels at all.
 
> On 3 Jun 2011, at 01:36, fantasai wrote:
> 
> > On 06/03/2011 02:43 AM, Belov, Charles wrote:
> >> fantasai wrote on Wednesday, June 01, 2011 6:26 PM
> >>>
> >>> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/#lists
> >>>
> >>> # disc, circle, square
> >>> #   These list item styles are spoken as the equivalent word for
> >>> #   the shape, in the user's language.
> >>>
> >>> Reading out "square" in front of each list item seems imho 
> >>> ridiculous.
> >>> These should map to a UA-defined (or user-defined) phrase 
> or aural 
> >>> icon that is appropriate for bulleted lists.
> >>
> >> Actually, the issue to me is whether screen readers are 
> helping the 
> >> listener keep track of the levels of bullets.  That is, 
> whether the 
> >> list is showing bullets, circles or squares depends on 
> whether this 
> >> is a nested list.  For a list like:
> >>
> >> [bullet] Cats.
> >> [bullet] Dogs.
> >> 	[circle] Lab.
> >> 	[circle] Chihuahua.
> >> [bullet] Birds.
> >>
> >> I believe the most useful output would be something that indicates 
> >> the transition between levels, e.g.,
> >>
> >> "Begin bulleted list. Item, cats. Item, dogs.  Begin second level.
> >> Item, Lab. Item, Chihuahua. End second level. Item, birds."
> >>
> >> Not sure that is the most usable example, but that would be a 
> >> non-ridiculous alternative to reading "bullet," "circle," "square".
> >> I suggest something like "Begin second level" rather than "Within 
> >> dogs" because "dogs" is short but, again for example, "In-Person 
> >> Customer Service Centers: These centers provide direct issuance of 
> >> fare cards." is not.
> >
> > Yes, I agree that this would be a reasonable rendering. I'd 
> do it by 
> > inserting text at the beginning/end of a list element, though, not 
> > attaching special styling to the first list item element. :)
> >


Hope this helps,
Charles Belov
SFMTA Webmaster
Received on Monday, 6 June 2011 22:09:58 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 26 March 2013 17:20:41 GMT