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Re: [css3-speech] reading list-style markers

From: Daniel Weck <daniel.weck@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 21:07:27 +0100
Message-Id: <F69AA2DE-97A3-44A5-8AA8-F3AA9894F89C@gmail.com>
To: www-style list <www-style@w3.org>, fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
I'd be cautious about forcing user-agents to generate speech cues that  
are not, per-say, intrinsic to the authored content. For example, well- 
known structures such as lists and tables are usually exposed via  
screen-readers using special audio/speech cues (with configurable  
verbosity to meet user needs / preferences). Extra cues may also be  
generated to facilitate non-linear navigation of complex information  
structures (this is clearly out-of-scope in CSS, but it does overlap  
with the "begin/end level" concept you are describing). We can't  
possibly enumerate every possible way to announce well-defined  
structure points. So I agree with Fantasai about inserting additional  
text at the right places (should this be the author's wish). I assume  
you implied using CSS-generated content, right ? I also agree with not  
reading the shape name before each list item (proper reply in a  
separate email, coming soon). Regards, Daniel

On 3 Jun 2011, at 01:36, fantasai wrote:

> On 06/03/2011 02:43 AM, Belov, Charles wrote:
>> fantasai wrote on Wednesday, June 01, 2011 6:26 PM
>>>
>>> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/#lists
>>>
>>> # disc, circle, square
>>> #   These list item styles are spoken as the equivalent word for
>>> #   the shape, in the user's language.
>>>
>>> Reading out "square" in front of each list item seems imho  
>>> ridiculous.
>>> These should map to a UA-defined (or user-defined) phrase or
>>> aural icon that is appropriate for bulleted lists.
>>
>> Actually, the issue to me is whether screen readers are helping the
>> listener keep track of the levels of bullets.  That is, whether the
>> list is showing bullets, circles or squares depends on whether this
>> is a nested list.  For a list like:
>>
>> [bullet] Cats.
>> [bullet] Dogs.
>> 	[circle] Lab.
>> 	[circle] Chihuahua.
>> [bullet] Birds.
>>
>> I believe the most useful output would be something that indicates
>> the transition between levels, e.g.,
>>
>> "Begin bulleted list. Item, cats. Item, dogs.  Begin second level.
>> Item, Lab. Item, Chihuahua. End second level. Item, birds."
>>
>> Not sure that is the most usable example, but that would be a
>> non-ridiculous alternative to reading "bullet," "circle," "square".
>> I suggest something like "Begin second level" rather than "Within
>> dogs" because "dogs" is short but, again for example, "In-Person
>> Customer Service Centers: These centers provide direct issuance
>> of fare cards." is not.
>
> Yes, I agree that this would be a reasonable rendering. I'd do it
> by inserting text at the beginning/end of a list element, though,
> not attaching special styling to the first list item element. :)
>
> ~fantasai
>
>

Daniel Weck
daniel.weck@gmail.com
Received on Monday, 6 June 2011 20:07:59 GMT

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