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Re: [css3-speech] reading list-style markers

From: Daniel Weck <daniel.weck@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 23:26:26 +0100
Cc: "fantasai" <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>, "www-style list" <www-style@w3.org>
Message-Id: <39DE758D-1B7A-4B1F-BFEE-DA036B7AFF4C@gmail.com>
To: "Belov, Charles" <Charles.Belov@sfmta.com>
Do you have any prose in mind to describe this ? I suppose that  
because it would be implementation-dependent (just like prefixing  
numbers with "Item"), we wouldn't have to be too detailed.

On 6 Jun 2011, at 23:06, Belov, Charles wrote:
> Daniel Weck wrote on Monday, June 06, 2011 1:07 PM
>>
>> I'd be cautious about forcing user-agents to generate speech
>> cues that are not, per-say, intrinsic to the authored
>> content. For example, well- known structures such as lists
>> and tables are usually exposed via screen-readers using
>> special audio/speech cues (with configurable verbosity to
>> meet user needs / preferences). Extra cues may also be
>> generated to facilitate non-linear navigation of complex
>> information structures (this is clearly out-of-scope in CSS,
>> but it does overlap with the "begin/end level" concept you
>> are describing). We can't possibly enumerate every possible
>> way to announce well-defined structure points. So I agree
>> with Fantasai about inserting additional text at the right
>> places (should this be the author's wish). I assume you
>> implied using CSS-generated content, right ? I also agree
>> with not reading the shape name before each list item (proper
>> reply in a separate email, coming soon). Regards, Daniel
>
> Even if CSS does not dictate how to read the different levels,
> I'd still like to see something explicitly requiring or at least
> recommending that the user-agent allow the user to differentiate
> beginnings and endings of levels in some manner.
>
> "For these list item styles, the user-agent defines (possibly
> based on user preferences) what equivalent phrase is spoken or
> what audio cue is played. List items with graphical bullets
> are therefore announced appropriately in an implementation-
> dependent manner."]
>
> does not appear to reference levels at all.
>
>> On 3 Jun 2011, at 01:36, fantasai wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/03/2011 02:43 AM, Belov, Charles wrote:
>>>> fantasai wrote on Wednesday, June 01, 2011 6:26 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-speech/#lists
>>>>>
>>>>> # disc, circle, square
>>>>> #   These list item styles are spoken as the equivalent word for
>>>>> #   the shape, in the user's language.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reading out "square" in front of each list item seems imho
>>>>> ridiculous.
>>>>> These should map to a UA-defined (or user-defined) phrase
>> or aural
>>>>> icon that is appropriate for bulleted lists.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, the issue to me is whether screen readers are
>> helping the
>>>> listener keep track of the levels of bullets.  That is,
>> whether the
>>>> list is showing bullets, circles or squares depends on
>> whether this
>>>> is a nested list.  For a list like:
>>>>
>>>> [bullet] Cats.
>>>> [bullet] Dogs.
>>>> 	[circle] Lab.
>>>> 	[circle] Chihuahua.
>>>> [bullet] Birds.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the most useful output would be something that indicates
>>>> the transition between levels, e.g.,
>>>>
>>>> "Begin bulleted list. Item, cats. Item, dogs.  Begin second level.
>>>> Item, Lab. Item, Chihuahua. End second level. Item, birds."
>>>>
>>>> Not sure that is the most usable example, but that would be a
>>>> non-ridiculous alternative to reading "bullet," "circle," "square".
>>>> I suggest something like "Begin second level" rather than "Within
>>>> dogs" because "dogs" is short but, again for example, "In-Person
>>>> Customer Service Centers: These centers provide direct issuance of
>>>> fare cards." is not.
>>>
>>> Yes, I agree that this would be a reasonable rendering. I'd
>> do it by
>>> inserting text at the beginning/end of a list element, though, not
>>> attaching special styling to the first list item element. :)
>>>
>
>
> Hope this helps,
> Charles Belov
> SFMTA Webmaster
>
>

Daniel Weck
daniel.weck@gmail.com
Received on Monday, 6 June 2011 22:26:58 GMT

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