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RE: [CSS21] bidi, text-align, and list markers

From: Tex Texin <textexin@xencraft.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 14:41:26 -0700
To: "'Adil Allawi'" <adil@diwan.com>
Cc: "'Markus Ernst'" <derernst@gmx.ch>, <aharon@google.com>, <public-i18n-bidi@w3.org>, <www-style@w3.org>, <bert@w3.org>, <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>, <alan@css-class.com>, <ambrose.li@gmail.com>, <jackalmage@gmail.com>, <addison@lab126.com>
Message-ID: <000001cb04f7$da9656b0$8fc30410$@com>
Thanks, the footnote examples are good. I might question whether that layout was desired, or limited by their publishing technology, but at least it is plausible and if someone wants to reproduce the page in html, it should be feasible, so that’s a good case.

 

On the horizontal list, either I missed the place where your claim is made, or I understand the spec differently.

The place where it says the decorations would not be shown is referring to splits. The list items have their own line boxes so are not split boxes. It would be a serious defect if the bullets were removed in a horizontal list. It would be unclear where each item begins and ends.

 

If the items of a horizontal list were switching the bullets between left and right side, then it would also be ambiguous where the beginning and ends were. (And some items would have two bullets between them.)

 

tex

 

From: Adil Allawi [mailto:adil@diwan.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:49 PM
To: Tex Texin
Cc: 'Markus Ernst'; aharon@google.com; public-i18n-bidi@w3.org; www-style@w3.org; bert@w3.org; fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net; alan@css-class.com; ambrose.li@gmail.com; jackalmage@gmail.com; addison@lab126.com
Subject: Re: [CSS21] bidi, text-align, and list markers

 

Tex,

A search of Arabic books in books.google.com will bring up a few good examples. Here is one for the case:

         OLLEH *
Hello          *
 

See the footnotes at the bottom of page 85 of this <http://books.google.com/books?id=liXL7J7NKCUC&lpg=PT177&dq=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&lr&as_brr=1&pg=PT85#v=onepage&q=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&f=false>  book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=liXL7J7NKCUC <http://books.google.com/books?id=liXL7J7NKCUC&lpg=PT177&dq=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&lr&as_brr=1&pg=PT85#v=onepage&q=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&f=false> &lpg=PT177&dq=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&lr&as_brr=1&pg=PT85#v=onepage&q=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&f=false

In the case a list is made horizontal CSS is quite clear on this. See: 

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#inline-formatting

The  bullets will not be drawn and the list items will be treated by bidi as inline elements.

regards

Adil


On 05/06/2010 19:59, Tex Texin wrote: 

Markus,
 
That was also my point. I don't see the case for the bullet switching sides within the list. So, there is either:
 
* hello
* OLLEH
 
Or 
 
Hello *
OLLEH *
 
However, that is too simple. The bullet image or characters might also be directional:
 
*) hello
*) OLLEH
 
Or 
 
Hello (*
OLLEH (*
 
The bullet image may need a direction setting, independent of its placement.
For checkboxes, there are checked and unchecked images.
Also, when hovering over the items, the bullet may need to look different.
And if the bullets were numeric, the digits might need to change from European to Arabic.
That is a lot of options to consider around the direction changing.
 
The list need not be vertical. If the list goes horizontal, things get really ugly:
 
*) hello *) OLLEH Hello (* OLLEH (*
 
For lists, I don't see the case for changing per item.
 
Going in to the discussion this week, it would be good if we had lots of examples (print or web) of use cases we need to support. There are lots of theoretical cases, which are impractical, and many actual cases which we might not reflect on during the discussion.
 
Any suggestions for online places to look for large varieties of actual, typical or desirable bidi use cases?
 
Any established or accepted references for RTL UI or print design guidelines?
Tex
 
-----Original Message-----
From: public-i18n-bidi-request@w3.org [mailto:public-i18n-bidi-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Markus Ernst
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 10:11 AM
To: Adil Allawi; aharon@google.com
Cc: public-i18n-bidi@w3.org; www-style@w3.org; bert@w3.org; fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net; alan@css-class.com; ambrose.li@gmail.com; jackalmage@gmail.com; addison@lab126.com
Subject: Re: [CSS21] bidi, text-align, and list markers
 

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 10:33:11 +0100
Von: Adil Allawi  <mailto:adil@diwan.com> <adil@diwan.com>

 

I think there is a need to control, through CSS, of the bullet   
alignment 
separately from the text align and a new value (for want of a better 
name) 'match-dir' to give the alignment based on the dir attribute of 
the <li> element as follows:
 
For a list starting with <ul dir="ltr"><li>hello</li> :
 
1. <li dir="rtl" style="text-align:match-dir;      
bullet-align:match-dir">HELLO gives:
 
* hello
                  OLLEH *    
2. <li dir="rtl" style="text-align:match-dir; 
bullet-align:match-parent">HELLO gives:
 
* hello
*                 OLLEH    
4. <li style="text-align:match-parent; bullet-align:match-dir">HELLO  
 
  (with no styles) gives:
* hello
  OLLEH *
 
 
3. <li style="text-align:match-parent; 
bullet-align:match-parent">HELLO(with no styles) gives:
 
* hello
* OLLEH
 
 
 
The default behavior of the HTML with no CSS would be one of the   
four possibilities above.

 
There is one point that I don't understand about the whole discussion: Is there any use case where a rendering other than 
 
* hello
* OLLEH
 
would be desired? It is the only one that does not look broken to me.
Received on Saturday, 5 June 2010 21:42:34 GMT

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