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[CSSWG] Minutes and Resolutions 2008-11-26

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:50:38 -0800
Message-ID: <492EFA0E.9050106@inkedblade.net>
To: www-style@w3.org

Summary:

   - Discussed position of list-item markers in the presence of floats and/or
     text-align when 'list-style-position' is 'outside'. fantasai suggests
     leaving behavior for floats undefined in CSS 2.1, and to ask web designers
     what they think wrt text-align.
       http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-86

   - Discussed how to clarify that comments are allowed at the beginning and
     end of a style sheet, not just between statements. Bert actioned to write
     a proposal.
       http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-87

   - Briefly discussed recent changes to Apple's Transformations and Transitions
     specs.
       http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0493.html

   - Discussed Selectors API's Last Call and the removal of namespace support.
     CSSWG has no further comments.

   - Reviewed status and expected progress on high-priority specs, need for
     Members to contribute test suites and how to coordinate contributions.

   - Discussed whether anonymous outer table box is a block formatting context.
     Seem to have consensus on that wrt floats, but there is still an open
     question about whether the caption and table margins collapse.
     Alex to propose exact text for later discussion.
       http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-88

====== Full minutes below ======

Attendees:

   David Baron
   Bert Bos
   Arron Eicholz
   Elika Etemad
   Sylvain Galineau
   Daniel Glazman
   Melinda Grant
   Alex Mogilevsky
   Saloni Mira Rai
   David Singer
   Mohamed Zergaoui
   Steve Zilles

ScribeNick:sylvaing

List-Item Marker Positioning
----------------------------

   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0298.html
   * dbaron did not have a chance to read it
   Saloni explains how list marker positioning implementations conflict
   with spec
   dbaron: we are close to interoperable behavior
   dbaron, fantasai: but this is not a simple issue
   fantasai: we could say that in the presence of floats, the position of
             the marker is undefined
   dbaron: it's the combination of both float and text-align
   fantasai suggests getting feedback from web designer
   <fantasai> "The position of the list-item marker in the presence of floats
              is undefined in CSS2.1."
   fantasai: position of the marker around floats could be undefined in 2.1
   <fantasai> I think we should ask web designers for feedback on the
              text-align issue
   <fantasai> We might get a straight answer, in which case we can define that
   fantasai: floats is the more complex case
   glazou: let's take a week to study this and get back to it next week.
   <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Feb/0116.html
            http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Feb/0118.html
            were my comments on the css3 proposals
   ACTION: glazou Ask web-designers how list-item markers should behave in the
           presence of text-align != start
   <fantasai> (wrt ACTION-118, for list-item-position: outside; behavior is
              defined for inside)
   <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-86

   fantasai: jason's answer on list marker is that centering text does
             not move the marker but right alignment moves the marker
   <fantasai> to the right side of the list
   fantasai will post jason's response to www-style

Where Are Comments Allowed
--------------------------

   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0494.html
   dbaron: the spec also says that @charset directive must be at the beginning
   dbaron: so this would be a case where comments cannot be at the top
   bert: we might still want to clarify the wording
   ACTION: bert to propose new wording
   <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-87

Transformations and Transitions
-------------------------------

   <dbaron> for the 2-D part, not the 3-D part
   glazou: transformations can be demo'ed interoperably in WebKit and Mozilla;
           can we move the spec to CR ?
   dsinger explains changes to document e.g. property value types have been
           clarified
   (scribe did not catch the first change)
   dsinger: we also want to drive the spec forward to complete interoperable
            implementations
   dsinger: we are working on test suites as well; no estimates yet. will get
            one
   dbaron: we have tests, may not be in a useful format yet
   mozilla, apple to work together on tests. will keep the mailing list posted.
   <dsinger> I worked on (a) which properties are animatable/transitionable,
             precisely (it used to say something vague) and (b) what does it
             mean to animate/transition all the value types which can be
             (e.g. color means interpolating in RGB, like SVG)
   glazou: i demoed transforms and transitions at Paris Web and the feedback
           was very positive
   glazou: most welcomed was backgrounds and borders, media queries,
           transitions and transforms
   glazou: interest in CSS 2.1 was essentially zero
   <dsinger> thank you for the encouraging report
   glazou: innovation would increase the profile of the WG. the sooner we
           have tests and specs the better.

Selectors API Last Call
-----------------------

   glazou: Selectors API Last Call WD. Namespace matching was removed.
           does the WG have comments ?
   dbaron: 2/3 of the spec's complexity for implementors and the spec was
           namespaces even though most authors care less about it
   bert: is the next version going to support namespaces ?
   <glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-api/
   <glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-api/#resolving
   dbaron: I thought there was a plan for eventual support. BorisZ did
           have an implementation until this was dropped from the spec
   glazou: nothing in the document indicating this is to be resolved in
           a future version of the document
   glazou: dbaron, are you saying this is not worth the implementation cost ?
   dbaron: it is worth considering for the next version. for now, this is
           the right thing to do
   <dbaron> I think what's in this draft is something that can go to REC
            quickly; if it had namespaces it wouldn't be able to.
   glazou: will communicate our WG has no further comments on Selectors
           API Last Call

Charter and Priority
--------------------

   glazou: review period for the charter ended a week ago.
   glazou: except for a minor comment, the charter is likely going to be
           approved.
   <dbaron> glazou, you're breaking up
   (glazou also in orbit)
   <glazou> http://www.w3.org/Style/2008/css-charter
   glazou enumerates high priority documents. all of them need test
          suites and these are on the critical path
   <dsinger> bubble bubble bubble
   fantasai: HP is working on paged media tests. Opera has a test suite
             for media queries
   dbaron: mozilla has a few tests for backgrounds and borders that could
           be useful
   <dsinger> who was the proponent?
   <dsinger> (I will ask here what we have, but it's out of my field, so
             I don't know)
   fantasai is editor, reports no time to write a test suite
   <alexmog> can we do a few minutes on table captions?
   <Bert> (I'm co-editor, I should probably contribute some tests, too...)
   glazou reviews which specs are implemented or partially implemented
   dbaron: of the specs in medium priority we care most about fonts,
           transformations and transitions, values & units and multicol
   glazou: and these are the ones web designers are most interested in
   microsoft : no priorities yet. apple agrees with current priorities.
   <alexmog> http://www.w3.org/Style/2008/css-charter

Anonymous Outer Table Box and Caption
-------------------------------------

   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0483.html
   <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-88
   alexmog explains the issue
   fantasai: agree that the anonymous table box is a block formatting
             context wrt floats; not sure we want to block margin collapsing
   <dbaron> The other issue with margin collapsing is where the margins of
            the table itself go.
   * fantasai thinks the diagram is very clear on this, and we had a very
     long discussion about it
   <fantasai> which resulted in the current diagram
   * sylvaing is having TPAC margin collapsing flashbacks
   * glazou too
   alexmog and fantasai having a long conversation about margin collapsing
     between caption and table
   fantasai, glazou: what do other implementers expect ?
   alexmog suggests treating anonymous box as a BFC except allowing outer
     caption margin to collapse with outer table margin
   alexmog would prefer, however, not to do the collapsing because of
     complexity
   alexmog to make a proposal to be reviewed next week
   <dsinger> thanks!

Meeting closed.
Received on Thursday, 27 November 2008 19:52:45 GMT

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