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[CSSWG] Minutes and Resolutions 2008-08-06

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:17:33 -0700
Message-ID: <489A22FD.3010400@inkedblade.net>
To: www-style@w3.org

Summary:

   RESOLVED: Respond to Al Gilman that deprecation of system colors in
             CSS3 Color is not obsolescence, and accessibility can still
             rely on system colors for the time being. The WG does not
             intend to obsolete system colors unless the replacement
             ('appearance') is ready at REC status.

   RESOLVED: First proposal (update prose to match tokenization for
             comment syntax) accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 66
               http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-66

   RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 58
               http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-58

   RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 59 (list markers & overflow)
               http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-59

   RESOLVED: Proposal to add
               Add to definition for 'outside': "The size or contents of
               the marker box may affect the height of the principal block
               box and/or the height of its first line box, and in some
               cases may cause the creation of a new line box.
               Note: This interaction may be more precisely defined in
                     a future level of CSS.
             accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 64 (marker may affect height of list item)
               http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-64

   RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 65
               http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-65

Full minutes below.
=======================================================================

Attendees:

   David Baron (late)
   Bert Bos
   Giorgi Chavchanidze
   Arron Eicholz
   Elika Etemad (scribe)
   Sylvain Galineau
   Daniel Glazman (chair)
   Melinda Grant
   Ming Gao
   Peter Linss
   Alex Mogilevsky
   David Singer
   Jason Cranford Teague

<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-css-irc
ScribeNick: fantasai

Administrivia
-------------
   Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0075.html
   glazou: I don't think we have official regrets for today
   glazou: David Baron is on summer break
   glazou: probably we had regrets from Molly from a few weeks ago
   glazou: Anything to add?
...
   * glazou notifies the WG that Richard Ishida is invited to ftf in Cambridge;
            agreement from Alex just arrived

HCG feedback on CSS3 Color
--------------------------

   Al Gilman said deprecating system colors in CSS 3 Colors leaves
   a gap in accessibility because CSS 3 UI is not ready yet to replace
   system colors.

   fantasai: CSS3 UI is in CR
   glazou: But it's not a REC
   fantasai: They're deprecated, not obsoleted. You still have to implement
             them.
   fantasai: deprecating them just says "these are expected to go away,
             but they're still there"
   glazou: So you suggest replying that Deprecation is not removal or
           obsolescence, and accessibility can still rely on system colors
           for the time being.
   glazou: I suggest adding that We will not obsolete system colors unless
           the replacement ('appearance') is ready at REC status.
   < SaloniR> agree
   RESOLVED: accepted to respond as stated above

CSS2.1 Issues
-------------

   http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-62
   and http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-51
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0602.html
   Looking at Bert's proposal.
   fantasai: Do we need to call out any other at-rules? Original proposal said
             that all at-rules are invalid inside @media in 2.1
   <dsinger> was there an interaction with the variables proposal here?
             (It's too early in the morning!)
   <fantasai> no, this is just 2.1
   <glazou> what fantasai said
   glazou: maybe a problem with @font
   fantasai: I think we should have a blanket statement about at-rules being
             invalid in CSS2.1. If a CSS3 module wants to make something
             valid in @media, then it needs to call that out specifically.
   ACTION fantasai: propose exact wording, be less confusing than last time

   http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-66
   Testcase at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/att-0060/escaped-comment.htm
   fantasai: Firefox, Opera, Safari follow tokenization rules
   fantasai: IE7 follows prose rules
   fantasai: Proposed to make prose consistent with tokenization.
   fantasai: This means that \*/ does not end a comment
   fantasai: But you can use a Unicode escape
   fantasai: This will allow a future CSSOM interface for comments to be able
             to serialize */
   glazou: I suggest to accept this proposal
   peter: aside from matching implementations, what is the advantage of this
          proposal?
   <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
   < glazou> (David Baron just joined)
   peter: I think a backslash should always do what a backslash does
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0473.html
   glazou: I think we should follow the grammar here
   peter: I don't feel that strongly about this, just raising a concern
   glazou: Only browser affected by the change is IE
   saloni: We're fine with the change. IE is going to match Firefox, Opera,
           and Safari
   glazou: Let's do it
   RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for Issue 66

   http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-58
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0451.html
   (clarification, accepted first proposal for issue 66, not second)
   glazou: I think the proposal for issue 58 is reasonable
   glazou summarizes the issue
   RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for issue 58

   http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-59
   Arron: If you have a list item, and you set a height and width on the
          list box and set overflow: scroll
   Arron: Does the marker show up when it's outside? If so, does it scroll
          with the contents?
   Arron: If you say hidden, do you see the marker? (when it's outside)
   peter: my opinion is that if the list position is outside, then the marker
          box is not inside the list item box. Therefore it should not be
          clipped or overflowed or hidden or anything.
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0454.html
   fantasai summarizes test results
   fantasai: I think most -- all -- web developers would expect the marker
             to appear
   fantasai: therefore I say we should go with IE's behavior, even though
             FF, Opera, and Safari interoperate on not showing the marker
   glazou: I agree. I'm not saying it's reasonable from our perspective,
           but it is from theirs
   Bert: I don't think more testcases would help. We have different
         behavior, we have to choose.
   fantasai: BTW the link to the hidden testcase shows a visible testcase,
             the real hidden testcase looks exactly like the scroll one
             except without the scrollbars (on all browsers that we tried)
   glazou: straw poll
   glazou: I think the marker should be visible.
   peter: agree
   fantasai: agree
   dsinger: no opinion
   jason: agree
   george: visible
   bert: visible
   arron: visible
   alex: visible
   saloni: visible
   sylvain: visible
   dbaron: abstain
   melinda: visible
   ming: pass
   glazou: I see a majority in favor of visible, with three abstain
   RESOLVED: Make the marker visible
     Add to definition of 'outside':
     | 'overflow' on the element does not clip the marker box.
     | The marker box is fixed with respect to the principal block
     | box's border and does not scroll with the principal block
     | box's content.
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0454.html
   RESOLVED: Proposal accepted

   http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-64
   <dbaron> (I'm not sure that the proposal is needed -- I think it's
            what the spec already says -- but it shouldn't hurt things,
            I don't think.)
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0453.html
   dbaron: Add that "This interaction may be more precisely defined in
           future levels of CSS."
   fantasai: I guess we should say "size and/or contents"
   dbaron: Need to add that it may cause the creation of a line box.
           This text might imply that it can't, and that may be something
           we need to add when we define things more precisely.
   dbaron: So maybe add "and/or cause the creation of a line box that
           would not otherwise be present"
   dbaron: this is different from increasing the height of the box
           because it affects baseline alignment wrt the baseline of
           the block
   arron: I think we need more tests
   dbaron: I think  it's ok to be vague in CSS2.1
   ACTION: fantasai combine dbaron's edits into proposal
   Proposal:
     Add to definition for 'outside': "The size or contents of
     the marker box may affect the height of the principal block
     box and/or the height of its first line box, and in some
     cases may cause the creation of a new line box.
     Note: This interaction may be more precisely defined in
           a future level of CSS.
   RESOLVED: accepted proposal above for issue 64

   http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-56
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0450.html
   More time needed to evaluate.
   Action to everyone to come up with an opinion about this for next
   week's conference call
   Discussion postponed to next week.

   http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-65
   RESOLVED: accepted proposal for issue 65

Logo contest
------------

   Jason: fantasai and I are having discussions with IanJ about the
          website design, don't want to go forward with logo contest
          until we get that sorted
   Jason: We want to coordinate with W3C's redesign, but also have
          information architecture and design that works best for
          our own audience

Agenda for F2F
--------------

   http://csswg.inkedblade.net/planning/cambridge-2008
   glazou: Come up with topics to discuss for F2F so we can have a strong F2F
   glazou: It would be good to get more information on trains to Cambridge
   <dsinger> you'll need to get to Liverpool street or King's Cross, as I recall
   <dbaron> http://www.cam.ac.uk/visitors/gettingto.html
   <dbaron> http://www.visitcambridge.org/howtogethere/howtogethere.php
   <dbaron> might be useful
   <dsinger> since St Pancras is next door to King's cross, I think it will
             be easy
   peter: I will be there  early, and I will have a car.
   glazou: If I am late, start without me; I shouldn't be very late.
   glazou: I have a meeting in paris on Tuesday
   dsinger: In general, can we get an agenda more than four weeks before the
            meeting? It's hard for me to justify international travel without
            an agenda
Received on Wednesday, 6 August 2008 22:18:13 GMT

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