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[Fwd: Re: css3-lists: Coptic and Ionic Greek]

From: Christos Cheretakis <xalkina@otenet.gr>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:07:15 +0200
Message-ID: <3DD0C4C3.6090703@otenet.gr>
To: Web Style Sheets W3C Mailing List <www-style@w3.org>

   OOPS... Seems I was subscribed under a different address and my mail 
couldn't make it to the list. Let's see if it succeeds this time...

	C/

-- 
   Λες κι η στάθμη της αγάπης πάει να βρει
   Πόσοι κρύβονται στη λάσπη θησαυροί
   Πως κοπήκανε στα δάχτυλα οι σταυροί
   Γι' ανθρώπων έργα...

attached mail follows:


Christopher Hoess (by way of Bert Bos ) wrote:

 > The following describes the behavior of four proposed additional
 > list-style-types, all of which are algorithmic.
 >

 > "upper-ionic-greek" and "lower-ionic-greek" (these names
 > are provisional) correspond to the classical Greek numbering system,
 >  which is said to be preferred over Roman numerals for list numbering
 >  in written Greek.


   Let me first note that there is no other greek numbering system 
besides the ancient one! That is, the one described in the WD, where the 
greek letters are mapped one-to-one to numbers is invalid. The ancient 
greek numbering system however contains two dead letters in its higher 
hundreds positions, which are not used anymore. So you may consider the 
one used today a "variation" of the ancient, but you should note that 
not all number can be represented!!!

   Besides, I think (but I am not sure) that ancient greeks never used 
capitals for numbering, so there's only a lower-greek variant. The 
modern greek variation is used both in upper & lower case however.

 > Lower-Coptic
 >
 > This is a simple additive system defined for the numbers 1-999,999. The
 > digits are split into groups of three (if there are less than six
 >  digits, the less significant group is filled first). Within each
 >  group, appropriate digits are picked from the following list (at most
 >  one per column) and written in descending order by value (hundreds
 >  first). The characters in the more significant group are combined with
 >  U+03FF, the combining double overline. The characters in the less
 >  significant group are combined with U+0305, the combining overline.
 >
 > Ones         Tens         Hundreds
 > 1   U+03B1 | 10  U+03B9 | 100  U+03C1
 > 2   U+03B2 | 20  U+03BA | 200  U+03C3
 > 3   U+03B3 | 30  U+03BB | 300  U+03C4
 > 4   U+03B4 | 40  U+03BC | 400  U+03C5
 > 5   U+03B5 | 50  U+03BD | 500  U+03C6
 > 6   U+03DB | 60  U+03BE | 600  U+03C7
 > 7   U+03B6 | 70  U+03BF | 700  U+03C8
 > 8   U+03B7 | 80  U+03C0 | 800  U+03C9
 > 9   U+03B8 | 90  U+03E5 | 900  U+03E1
 >
 > The suffix for the coptic numbering system is a dot U+002E.
 > Numbers outside the range of the coptic system are rendered using the
 > decimal rendering style.
 >
 > Lower-Ionic-Greek
 >
 > This system is identical to the "lower-coptic" system, but combines the
 > final letter in the less significant group with U+0374, the Greek
 >  numeral sign rather than the combining overline, and the final letter
 >  in the more significant group with U+0375, the greek lower numeral
 >  sign, rather than the combining double overline.


   The table for lower greek is as follows:

  Ones                     Tens             Hundreds
   1   U+03B1 (α)         | 10  U+03B9 (ι) | 100  U+03C3 (σ)
   2   U+03B2 (β)         | 20  U+03BA (κ) | 200  U+03C4 (τ)
   3   U+03B3 (γ)         | 30  U+03BB (λ) | 300  U+03C5 (υ)
   4   U+03B4 (δ)         | 40  U+03BC (μ) | 400  U+03C6 (φ)
   5   U+03B5 (ε)         | 50  U+03BD (ν) | 500  U+03C7 (χ)
   6   U+03C3,U+03C4 (στ) | 60  U+03BE (ξ) | 600  U+03C8 (ψ)
   7   U+03B6 (ζ)         | 70  U+03BF (ο) | 700  U+03C9 (ω)
   8   U+03B7 (η)         | 80  U+03C0 (π) | 800  probably digamma
   9   U+03B8 (θ)         | 90  U+03C1 (ρ) | 900  probably stigma

   In parentheses are the equivalent iso-8859-7 characters, in case I 
made any mistakes with the mapping!

   For 1000, a "small greek alpha" with a dot was used. Not sure whether 
the dot was adove or below alpha. It was repeated for more thousands...

 > Upper-Coptic
 >
 > This system is identical to the "lower-coptic" system but uses the
 > following codepoints instead.
 >
 > Ones         Tens         Hundreds
 > 1   U+0391 | 10  U+0399 | 100  U+03A1
 > 2   U+0392 | 20  U+039A | 200  U+03A3
 > 3   U+0393 | 30  U+039B | 300  U+03A4
 > 4   U+0394 | 40  U+039C | 400  U+03A5
 > 5   U+0395 | 50  U+039D | 500  U+03A6
 > 6   U+03DA | 60  U+039E | 600  U+03A7
 > 7   U+0396 | 70  U+039F | 700  U+03A8
 > 8   U+0397 | 80  U+03A0 | 800  U+03A9
 > 9   U+0398 | 90  U+03DF | 900  U+03E0
 >
 > Upper-Ionic-Greek
 >
 > This system is identical to the "lower-ionic-greek" system but uses
 > the codepoints of the "upper-coptic" system rather than the "coptic"
 > system.

   As noted earlier, there was no ancient upper system.

   The suffix for ancient greek was an apostrophe. Judging from its 
name, that could be U+0374, greek numeral sign

   Modern greek uses the ancient lower system, but does not have the 800 
& 900 positions, so you can only count up to 799. The upper system uses 
the same characters in their upper case. The suffix in modern greek 
could be either a dot, or a closing parenthesis.

   Upper greek would be:

  Ones                     Tens         Hundreds
   1   U+0391 (Α)         | 10  U+0399 (Ι) | 100  U+03A2 (Σ)
   2   U+0392 (Β)         | 20  U+039A (Κ) | 200  U+03A3 (Τ)
   3   U+0393 (Γ)         | 30  U+039B (Λ) | 300  U+03A4 (Υ)
   4   U+0394 (Δ)         | 40  U+039C (Μ) | 400  U+03A5 (Φ)
   5   U+0395 (Ε)         | 50  U+039D (Ν) | 500  U+03A6 (Χ)
   6   U+03A3,U+03A4 (ΣΤ) | 60  U+039E (Ξ) | 600  U+03A7 (Ψ)
   7   U+0396 (Ζ)         | 70  U+039F (Ο) | 700  U+03A8 (Ω)
   8   U+0397 (Η)         | 80  U+03A0 (Π) | 800  none
   9   U+0398 (Θ)         | 90  U+03A1 (Ρ) | 900  none


 > Caveats:
 > It might be best to describe the Coptic systems as variations on the
 >  Ionic Greek systems, as is true historically.
 >
 > I am not entirely certain of my description of the combining characters
 >  in the Ionic Greek systems and their position. Some sources suggest
 >  that numbers in the less significant group should use no combining
 >  symbol. I am also unsure as to whether it is correct to use the
 >  numbers 10-999 with the lower combining symbol (representing
 >  thousands). There appears to have been some use of code point U+039C
 >  as a combining modifier (!), signifying "myriad", but I have no more
 >  precise information.
 >
 > The code points U+03DA and U+03DB (upper- and lower-case "stigma") are
 > orthographic successors of code points U+03DC and U+03DD (upper- and
 > lower-case "digamma"), and the latter may in fact be more correct to
 >  use in list numbering. Input on this point is particularly welcomed
 >  from modern users of this numbering system. I am also uncertain as to
 >  whether or not the dot is the most appropriate suffix character.
 >
 > --
 > Chris Hoess
 >
 >
 >

   Currently doing some research for more details. Will follow up, when 
I have something more precise.

	C/

-- 
   Λες κι η στάθμη της αγάπης πάει να βρει
   Πόσοι κρύβονται στη λάσπη θησαυροί
   Πως κοπήκανε στα δάχτυλα οι σταυροί
   Γι' ανθρώπων έργα...
Received on Tuesday, 12 November 2002 04:09:11 GMT

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