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RE: Comment on working draft "Specifying Language in XHTML and HTML Content"

From: CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:29:33 -0500
Message-ID: <BAY114-F292D345BD1A8141881C06EB37C0@phx.gbl>
To: ishida@w3.org
Cc: www-international@w3.org

It might be a good idea to include a link to the URL you sent me to
(http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/)
in paragraph 4 of section 3.3
of your document (Internationalization Best Practices 
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-i18n-html-tech-lang-20060721/)--

"In some scripts, such as Arabic and Hebrew, text runs predominantly from 
right to left. Within that flow, numbers and text from other scripts run 
from left to right. It is important to adequately specify the intended 
directionality of text in a document."  {Add a note, "see <a href="">'What 
You Need to Know . . . '"</a>}

(I assume then that when images of Arabic or Hebrew typed are transformed 
back into text--perhaps we are not at that stage with these languages 
yet--that the software that transforms the images to text will have to mark 
up or reverse any numbers.)


--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
>
>Mr Whitehead, please read
>http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/ for 
>information
>about how the bidirectional algorithm and markup work together.
>
>RI
>
>============
>Richard Ishida
>Internationalization Lead
>W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
>http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
>http://www.w3.org/International/
>http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: www-international-request@w3.org
> > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of CE Whitehead
> > Sent: 11 March 2007 19:50
> > To: rosennej@qsm.co.il; www-international@w3.org
> > Subject: RE: Comment on working draft "Specifying Language in
> > XHTML and HTML Content"
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > Hi, regarding the suggestion to change Azerbaijani, generally
> > language codes are two-letter; some are three-letter;
> > otherwise you'd have a variant and I would not think a
> > variant would be appropriate, but anyway, this discussion
> > belongs on another list.
> >
> > (Sorry.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I think Azerbaijani is coded az:
> > > >
> > > > Type: language
> > > > Subtag: az
> > > > Description: Azerbaijani
> > > > Added: 2005-10-16
> > > >
> > > > (http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry)
> > >
> > >Yes, it does say so, but it seems to be a mistake. I believe
> > we should
> > >ask the people concerned what is their preference. I have
> > submitted the
> > >question to CLDR.
> > >
> > >See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis
> > >
> > >The French locale has azéri
> > >
> > >http://unicode.org/cldr/apps/survey?_=fr&x=languages&skip=80#
>Unconfirme
> > >d
> > >
> > > >
> > > > As for numerals in Arabic, they do run left-to-right as
> > they do in
> > > > English, while Arabic text runs right-to-left.
> > > >
> > > > according to the document below, the numbers do not automatically
> > > > get displayed properly:
> > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-css3-text-20030226/#Progression
> > > > .date {writing-mode: lr-tb;}
> > > > <span class="date">1996</span>
> > > >
> > > > I'll have to let someone else speak more on numerals
> > embedded in non
> > > > left-to-right scripts.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >"Note: Even when the inline-progression is left-to-right or
> > >right-to-left, some or all of the content within a given
> > element might
> > >advance in the opposite direction because of the Unicode [UNICODE]
> > >bidirectional algorithm or because of explicit text advance
> > overrides
> > >due to this property or 'direction' and 'unicode-bidi'. "
> >
> > >
> > >For numbers, the inversion is implicit.
> >
> > (Is the inversion implicit ?? When you type on an Arabic
> > typewriter, I guess you start typing numerals beginning with
> > the 1's, then the 10's, then the 100's--I've never typed
> > numerals on an Arabic typewriter though [a poem once I typed,
> > that was written by al-Khansa, that I found in Arberry, and
> > that I needed to markup.])
> >
> > I'm really a novice at the rules for when you have to specify
> > directionality as it's implicit if the language is English or
> > French; but numerals in both English and the computer world
> > normally are thought of as running from the big numbers,
> > 1000's, then 100's, then 10's, then 1's, say, that is, from
> > left-to-right, and Arabic runs right-to-left.
> >
> > If you've specified the language as Arabic you have reversed
> > the directionality.
> >
> > So I do not know.
> >
> > (It might be nice to have directionality for numerals
> > implicit, but . . . if I used numbers more often in my texts
> > maybe I'd have more to say on this; thanks so very very much. )
> >
> > Let's wait to see if Richard Ishida has anything to add to
> > this discussion here.
> > >
> > >Jony
> > >
> > > >
> > > > (I'm really still pretty novice, I think.)
> > > >
> > > > --C. E. Whitehead
> > > > cewcathar@hotmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Clause 3.3 Relationships between language, character
> > encoding and
> > > > >directionality
> > > > >
> > > > >The 4th paragraph is misleading. One might get the
> > > > impression that bidi
> > > > >tags
> > > > >are required for numbers. I suggest that the second sentence
> > > > be deleted.
> > > > >
> > > > >"Similarly" in the 5th paragraph is not very clear.
> > Similar to what?
> > > > >And shouldn't it be "Azeri"?
> > > > >
> > > > >Clause 4.2 Attributes or metadata?
> > > > >
> > > > >I would like to add that often the author is not able to control
> > > > >the metadata. It is handled by the server, and in any large
> > > > >organization the bureaucratic obstacles make it too
> > difficult for
> > > > >most authors to manage, even if they are aware of it,
> > which they may not be.
> >
> > You can easily write something in the meta  element
> > specifying the content language if you write in html; in
> > addition many applications will insert a content language now
> > and you have the option of setting that just as you do in
> > Word (though Word does not produce the nicest html markup; it
> > depends what you want).
> >
> > Otherwise, yes you have to go into the source code to insert
> > the text processing language for the document.  (the most
> > important one to set it seems may be the language in the html tag).
> > You have to have access to server settings if you want to set
> > the language in the headers that the server puts on.
> >
> > That's basically what that draft says.
> >
> > (It is very easy to get convoluted when you write something
> > long, as I should know, and that is my main criticism of that
> > draft, it gets a bit convoluted here and there)
> > > > >
> > > > >Jony
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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>
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Received on Tuesday, 13 March 2007 17:29:42 GMT

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