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RE: Comment on working draft "Specifying Language in XHTML and HTML Content"

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:27:17 -0000
To: "'CE Whitehead'" <cewcathar@hotmail.com>
Cc: <www-international@w3.org>
Message-ID: <00e101c7663c$7d2cafe0$6401a8c0@rishida>

I added some links to tutorials on both character encoding and text
direction. Thanks.

Btw, note that you should base comments on the editor's version [1] of that
document, since it has moved on a considerable way from the last published
version, which is what you point to in your email.

RI

[1]
http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-lang.html#ri20050208.0936
46470

============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
 
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com] 
> Sent: 13 March 2007 17:30
> To: ishida@w3.org
> Cc: www-international@w3.org
> Subject: RE: Comment on working draft "Specifying Language in 
> XHTML and HTML Content"
> 
> It might be a good idea to include a link to the URL you sent me to
> (http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/)
> in paragraph 4 of section 3.3
> of your document (Internationalization Best Practices
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-i18n-html-tech-lang-20060721/)--
> 
> "In some scripts, such as Arabic and Hebrew, text runs 
> predominantly from right to left. Within that flow, numbers 
> and text from other scripts run from left to right. It is 
> important to adequately specify the intended directionality 
> of text in a document."  {Add a note, "see <a href="">'What 
> You Need to Know . . . '"</a>}
> 
> (I assume then that when images of Arabic or Hebrew typed are 
> transformed back into text--perhaps we are not at that stage 
> with these languages yet--that the software that transforms 
> the images to text will have to mark up or reverse any numbers.)
> 
> 
> --C. E. Whitehead
> cewcathar@hotmail.com
> >
> >Mr Whitehead, please read
> >http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/ for 
> >information about how the bidirectional algorithm and markup work 
> >together.
> >
> >RI
> >
> >============
> >Richard Ishida
> >Internationalization Lead
> >W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> >
> >http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> >http://www.w3.org/International/
> >http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: www-international-request@w3.org 
> > > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of CE 
> Whitehead
> > > Sent: 11 March 2007 19:50
> > > To: rosennej@qsm.co.il; www-international@w3.org
> > > Subject: RE: Comment on working draft "Specifying 
> Language in XHTML 
> > > and HTML Content"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Hi, regarding the suggestion to change Azerbaijani, generally 
> > > language codes are two-letter; some are three-letter; otherwise 
> > > you'd have a variant and I would not think a variant would be 
> > > appropriate, but anyway, this discussion belongs on another list.
> > >
> > > (Sorry.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I think Azerbaijani is coded az:
> > > > >
> > > > > Type: language
> > > > > Subtag: az
> > > > > Description: Azerbaijani
> > > > > Added: 2005-10-16
> > > > >
> > > > > (http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry)
> > > >
> > > >Yes, it does say so, but it seems to be a mistake. I believe
> > > we should
> > > >ask the people concerned what is their preference. I have
> > > submitted the
> > > >question to CLDR.
> > > >
> > > >See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis
> > > >
> > > >The French locale has azéri
> > > >
> > > >http://unicode.org/cldr/apps/survey?_=fr&x=languages&skip=80#
> >Unconfirme
> > > >d
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > As for numerals in Arabic, they do run left-to-right as
> > > they do in
> > > > > English, while Arabic text runs right-to-left.
> > > > >
> > > > > according to the document below, the numbers do not 
> > > > > automatically get displayed properly:
> > > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-css3-text-20030226/#Progression
> > > > > .date {writing-mode: lr-tb;}
> > > > > <span class="date">1996</span>
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll have to let someone else speak more on numerals
> > > embedded in non
> > > > > left-to-right scripts.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >"Note: Even when the inline-progression is left-to-right or 
> > > >right-to-left, some or all of the content within a given
> > > element might
> > > >advance in the opposite direction because of the Unicode 
> [UNICODE] 
> > > >bidirectional algorithm or because of explicit text advance
> > > overrides
> > > >due to this property or 'direction' and 'unicode-bidi'. "
> > >
> > > >
> > > >For numbers, the inversion is implicit.
> > >
> > > (Is the inversion implicit ?? When you type on an Arabic 
> typewriter, 
> > > I guess you start typing numerals beginning with the 1's, 
> then the 
> > > 10's, then the 100's--I've never typed numerals on an Arabic 
> > > typewriter though [a poem once I typed, that was written by 
> > > al-Khansa, that I found in Arberry, and that I needed to markup.])
> > >
> > > I'm really a novice at the rules for when you have to specify 
> > > directionality as it's implicit if the language is English or 
> > > French; but numerals in both English and the computer 
> world normally 
> > > are thought of as running from the big numbers, 1000's, 
> then 100's, 
> > > then 10's, then 1's, say, that is, from left-to-right, and Arabic 
> > > runs right-to-left.
> > >
> > > If you've specified the language as Arabic you have reversed the 
> > > directionality.
> > >
> > > So I do not know.
> > >
> > > (It might be nice to have directionality for numerals 
> implicit, but 
> > > . . . if I used numbers more often in my texts maybe I'd 
> have more 
> > > to say on this; thanks so very very much. )
> > >
> > > Let's wait to see if Richard Ishida has anything to add to this 
> > > discussion here.
> > > >
> > > >Jony
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > (I'm really still pretty novice, I think.)
> > > > >
> > > > > --C. E. Whitehead
> > > > > cewcathar@hotmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Clause 3.3 Relationships between language, character
> > > encoding and
> > > > > >directionality
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The 4th paragraph is misleading. One might get the
> > > > > impression that bidi
> > > > > >tags
> > > > > >are required for numbers. I suggest that the second sentence
> > > > > be deleted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Similarly" in the 5th paragraph is not very clear.
> > > Similar to what?
> > > > > >And shouldn't it be "Azeri"?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Clause 4.2 Attributes or metadata?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I would like to add that often the author is not able to 
> > > > > >control the metadata. It is handled by the server, 
> and in any 
> > > > > >large organization the bureaucratic obstacles make it too
> > > difficult for
> > > > > >most authors to manage, even if they are aware of it,
> > > which they may not be.
> > >
> > > You can easily write something in the meta  element 
> specifying the 
> > > content language if you write in html; in addition many 
> applications 
> > > will insert a content language now and you have the option of 
> > > setting that just as you do in Word (though Word does not produce 
> > > the nicest html markup; it depends what you want).
> > >
> > > Otherwise, yes you have to go into the source code to insert the 
> > > text processing language for the document.  (the most 
> important one 
> > > to set it seems may be the language in the html tag).
> > > You have to have access to server settings if you want to set the 
> > > language in the headers that the server puts on.
> > >
> > > That's basically what that draft says.
> > >
> > > (It is very easy to get convoluted when you write 
> something long, as 
> > > I should know, and that is my main criticism of that 
> draft, it gets 
> > > a bit convoluted here and there)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Jony
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> >
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> >11/03/2007
> >09:27
> >
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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> Much? Calculate new payment
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> 

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Received on Wednesday, 14 March 2007 13:27:30 GMT

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