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Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available

From: A. Vine <andrea.vine@Sun.COM>
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:04:23 -0800
To: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Cc: Mark Davis <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>, www-international@w3.org
Message-id: <4187DA37.5050901@sun.com>

FWIW, I share Addison's and Mark's views on these definitions.  Sun 
doesn't define the terms the same way and the W3C is looked at as a 
normative body.  Even if these definitions are meant to be only 
suggestions, people will take them at their word.

I think it would make the most sense for one of 2 things to happen - 
either offer up a few possible explanations (not definitions) of each 
term, or try and come up with more consensus on it (can of worms).

We've (Sun) actually resisted putting up definitions on our g11n site 
for this very reason.

I am sorry if my comments are late in coming.  There is so much noise 
that comes from the I18n WG list that it's hard to know what I should be 
paying attention to.

Andrea

Mark Davis wrote:

> I agree. It is a bit like saying "People define these concepts in slightly
> different ways. Here are some working definitions for that you might find
> useful."
> 
> Character: letter from A to Z.
> ...
> 
> If you don't expose that people use the word "character" in *very* different
> ways, then you are doing all of your readers a disservice. Moreover, if this
> is also the "a version that will hopefully be useful most of the time to
> read the stuff we put out on Web internationalization" then I object much
> more strongly. The article is written as though it is just one person's
> opinion; not as if it is the definition that will be used within all the W3C
> internationalization pages. If it is the latter case, then it is even more
> important to fix or clarify. I know that we use "globalized" software to
> mean
> 
> 
>> >> A globalized software product is internationalized for
>> >> multiple languages simultaneously, using a single, uniform
>> >> character encoding in all of its internal processing.
> 
> 
> and not "Globalization describes the constantly expanding connectivity and
> interdependence of the world's markets and businesses." which I find pretty
> bizarre and useless. What is globalized software according to this? Software
> that constantly expands? That is interdependent?
> 
> ‚ÄéMark
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Martin Duerst" <duerst@w3.org>
> To: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>; <www-international@w3.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 16:37
> Subject: RE: New change logs and RSS feeds available
> 
> 
> 
>>At 04:14 04/10/29, Richard Ishida wrote:
>> >
>> >Hi Mark,
>> >
>> >[restricting the copy list, since I now have 5 copies of the mail you
> 
> just
> 
>> >sent :-) ]
>> >
>> >The full quote from the introduction says:
>> >
>> >"People define these concepts in slightly different ways.
>>
>>Given the various definitions we have seen, it sounds to me like
>>this is a heavy understatement.
>>
>>Regards,    Martin.
>>
>> >Here are some
>> >working definitions for Web internationalization that you might find
> 
> useful."
> 
>> >
>> >I think this addresses your comment, doesn't it?  We recognise that
> 
> people
> 
>> >have differing definitions, but there would never be an end, or much
>> >educational value, if we listed them all.  So we acknowledge that there
> 
> are
> 
>> >differences, and offer a version that will hopefully be useful most of
> 
> the
> 
>> >time to read the stuff we put out on Web internationalization.
>> >
>> >RI
>> >
>> >============
>> >Richard Ishida
>> >W3C
>> >
>> >contact info:
>> >http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
>> >
>> >W3C Internationalization:
>> >http://www.w3.org/International/
>> >
>> >Publication blog:
>> >http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com]
>> >> Sent: 28 October 2004 16:28
>> >> To: Richard Ishida; 'GEO'; www-international@w3.org;
>> >> w3c-i18n-ig@w3.org
>> >> Subject: Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available
>> >>
>> >> Hmmm. I sure thought I did; but if you didn't get it then
>> >> it's as good as not sent. Here is a recap.
>> >>
>> >> The ordering of the definitions (localization,
>> >> internationalization, globalization is good, since each wants
>> >> to reference the previous), and the definition of
>> >> localization is reasonable.
>> >>
>> >> However, the definitions are stated in a way that would lead
>> >> one to believe that they match more or less what everyone
>> >> uses. It has one caveat at the start " Here are some working
>> >> definitions for Web internationalization that you might find
>> >> useful.", but doesn't point out that there are signficant
>> >> differences which will lead one into confusion. In
>> >> particular, what some people characterize as 'globalization'
>> >> others would characterize as 'internationalization'.
>> >>
>> >> For example, here are some definitions that differ
>> >> substantially from what is on that page:
>> >>
>> >> An internationalized software product is one that can be
>> >> localized without modification, by the addition or
>> >> replacement of data modules (called resources). Internally,
>> >> it is modularized, and accesses language-specific services
>> >> such as sorting through common interfaces.
>> >>
>> >> A globalized software product is internationalized for
>> >> multiple languages simultaneously, using a single, uniform
>> >> character encoding in all of its internal processing.
>> >>  * A globalized program can support data from any language
>> >> without any intervening installation process, and can freely
>> >> intermix data in those languages without risking data
>> >> corruption. A globalized product with a user interface also
>> >> has the capability to localize it to any desired language,
>> >> and to switch the user interface from any of the localized
>> >> languages to another one, without reinstalling. Think of this
>> >> as being able to plug in new languages at will.
>> >>
>> >> Others:
>> >>
>> >> internationalization
>> >> Definition: The process of designing and developing a
>> >> software product to function in multiple locales.
>> >> Definition: In software engineering, the process of producing
>> >> a product that is independent of any particular language,
>> >> script, culture, and coded character set.
>> >> Definition: The process of ensuring at a technical/design
>> >> level that a product can be easily localized.
>> >> Definition: The process of developing a program core whose
>> >> feature and code designs do not make assumptions on the basis
>> >> of a single language or locale and whose source code base
>> >> simplifies the creation of different language editions of a program.
>> >>
>> >> globalization
>> >> Definition: The proper design and execution of systems,
>> >> software, services, and procedures so that one instance of
>> >> software, executing on a single server or end user machine,
>> >> can process multilingual data, and present data culturally
>> >> correctly in a multicultural environment such as the Internet.
>> >> Presentation of data includes (a) allowing each individual
>> >> user to select a language for the user interface and that
>> >> language may differ from the language of the data that is
>> >> being processed, and (b) presenting information, such as
>> >> dates and numbers, culturally correctly for each user even if
>> >> they are from different regions.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ?Mark
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
>> >> To: "'Mark Davis'" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>; "'GEO'"
>> >> <public-i18n-geo@w3.org>; <www-international@w3.org>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 08:05
>> >> Subject: RE: New change logs and RSS feeds available
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Mark, did you send a note about that?  I don't seem to be
>> >> able to find
>> >> one.
>> >> >
>> >> > RI
>> >> >
>> >> > ============
>> >> > Richard Ishida
>> >> > W3C
>> >> >
>> >> > contact info:
>> >> > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
>> >> >
>> >> > W3C Internationalization:
>> >> > http://www.w3.org/International/
>> >> >
>> >> > Publication blog:
>> >> > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com]
>> >> > > Sent: 27 October 2004 15:49
>> >> > > To: Richard Ishida; GEO; www-international@w3.org
>> >> > > Subject: Re: New change logs and RSS feeds available
>> >> > >
>> >> > > BTW, I still object to the definitions of
>> >> > > internationalization and globalization on
>> >> > > http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n
>> >> > >
>> >> > > ?Mark
>> >> > >
>> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > From: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
>> >> > > To: "GEO" <public-i18n-geo@w3.org>; <www-international@w3.org>
>> >> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:36
>> >> > > Subject: New change logs and RSS feeds available
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > New change logs and RSS feeds available
>> >> > > 26 October 2004
>> >> > > Site improvements
>> >> > >
>> >> > > The new page [http://www.w3.org/International/log/Overview]
>> >> > > lists updates to
>> >> > > resources and publications on the W3C International site, as
>> >> > > well as news
>> >> > > items. Items are in chronological order, with the newest at
>> >> > > the top. There
>> >> > > are also a number of additional lists generated from this one
>> >> > > according to
>> >> > > categories assigned to news items. They currently include:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >     * resources: separates out items relating to new
>> >> resource pages or
>> >> > > publications, or updates to existing documents.
>> >> > >     * tests: separates out items relating to developments to
>> >> > > the test suite.
>> >> > >     * translations: separates out items relating to new or updated
>> >> > > translations of material on the Internationalization site.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Each of the logs provided comes with a link to an RSS 2.0
>> >> > > feed, so that you
>> >> > > can be notified of new items. For example, non-native English
>> >> > > speakers or
>> >> > > translators may wish to subscribe to the translations RSS
>> >> > > feed, to know when
>> >> > > new translations are produced.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > If you would like to see additional categories, please
>> >> contact Richard
>> >> > > Ishida at ishida @ w3.org.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > These pages are also linked from the home page at
>> >> > > http://www.w3.org/International/ and the format of that page
>> >> > > has changed to
>> >> > > allow me to more easily post news (which means I'm much
>> >> more likely to
>> >> > > actually do so).
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > ============
>> >> > > Richard Ishida
>> >> > > W3C
>> >> > >
>> >> > > contact info:
>> >> > > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
>> >> > >
>> >> > > W3C Internationalization:
>> >> > > http://www.w3.org/International/
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Publication blog:
>> >> > > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 

-- 
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the
intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher,
mathematician, author (1872-1970)
[...shouldn't that end with "or maybe not?"]
Received on Tuesday, 2 November 2004 19:09:51 GMT

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