Re: CTP's UL, OL, LI Proposal.... -Reply

Charles Peyton Taylor (
Tue, 21 May 1996 10:48:14 -0800

Message-Id: <>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 10:48:14 -0800
From: Charles Peyton Taylor <>
Subject:  RE: CTP's UL, OL, LI Proposal.... -Reply

>>> Hakon Lie <> 05/18/96 05:04am >>>
>Chris Josephes writes:
> > clear that there have been no less than seven attributes
declared for UL 
> > alone (from Warren), so I would like to recommend that these
> > be logically broken down into "structure" and "presentation"
depending on 
> > their function.  I would then urge that some of the
> > attributes be moved over to style sheets to keep things a bit
less complex.
>Agreed, but for different reasons.

I will not argue that style sheets are not the better
way of doing things, but they are not supported in 
browsers today (although the messages from Chris 
Wilson and Thomas Reardon give hope that they will
be soon.) 

Images (as in <img>) are used now, so it 
seemed reasonable to use the attributes
from the <IMG> tag.

Also, even though they have the list-style
property, they do not *yet* have a means of 
specifying height and width values, which, as I 
said before, make a dramatic difference in the 
speed at which a document is displayed.

I agree that this is presentation-based, rather 
than content-based, but it was closer to being
content-based markup than  <DL> <dd> 
<img> "our first bullet" </DL> which is being 
frequently used today.  I am not the first 
person to ask for this, remember, it was in 
the March  95 HTML 3 draft (and probably was 
being asked for long before then.)


>Right. I don't care too much for the "ding-" prefix, but I'm sure
>we can agree on some naming mechanism. See [1] for a list of
>"HTML predefined icon-like symbols".

While these are useful, they are closer to being 
icons than dingbats, IMHO.
They remind me of a collection of images I use
called Qbullets:

Is there a public domain collection of dingbats? 
I've just looked at the characters in the Wingdings
font, and it contains some of the icon entities, 
as does Zapf Dingbats, although Zapf Dingbats seem
more ornamental.  The problem is the Wingdings font 
comes with Windows, and Zapf Dingbats comes with
Macintosh.  It would be nifty if some design school 
did a collection of dingbats as a project or something
and put them on the internet in Mac, PC, and X-windows
(whatever format that is) formats.

>CSS1 is closed at this point, but the things we discuss could
>potentially get into the next round.

What are the chances of browser vendors adding 
their own properties as they did with HTML tags 
and attributes?  I wonder if we'll end up using
Netscape tags and Microsoft styles :)

>Hakon W Lie, W3C/INRIA, Sophia-Antipolis, France

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