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Re: hasProvenance property name [MAYBE URGENT]

From: Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:26:44 +0000
Message-ID: <CAJCyKRo5+s9tAEasgC2EGqmfrvCcSAzJNA4jR4ztXe1sgtSP-Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Cc: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>, Stian Soiland-Reyes <soiland-reyes@cs.manchester.ac.uk>, "www-archive@w3.org" <www-archive@w3.org>
ok will do.

@Graham will you update the paq?

Thanks
Paul


On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>wrote:

>  yes Paul, no problem, I wouldn't wait till the call, I would tell all
> editors now.
>
> Luc
>
>
> On 02/27/2013 10:16 AM, Paul Groth wrote:
>
> I have this as part of the agenda item on the call tomorrow.
>
>  I'd like to decide by then.
>
>  @Luc are you ok with the underscore solution?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>
>> Very honestly: I do not have strong opinion here, I can go either way.
>> But yes, we should decide soon.
>>
>> Ivan
>>
>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 11:02 , Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl> wrote:
>>
>> > Have we come to a conclusion on this?
>> >
>> > We need to decide to let people go through the staging process.
>> >
>> > I'm in favor of prov:has_provenance . As this is a purely syntactic
>> change from what we already had.
>> >
>> > cheers
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>
>> wrote:
>> > I would favour prov:has_provenance over prov:hasprovenance or
>> prov:provenance.
>> >
>> > I have a concern that prov:provenance reads more like a class name than
>> a
>> > property/relation.  Also, can we be sure that, in future, someone won't
>> want to
>> > define prov:Provenance as a class of some kind?  (Because of the case
>> > insensitive matching defined by RFC5988, and arguably good practice
>> generally,
>> > the capitalized form should be off-limits for future use if
>> prov:provenance is
>> > selected.
>> >
>> > #g
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> > On 26/02/2013 10:51, Paul Groth wrote:
>> > > That seems to be the best way then.
>> > >
>> > > so prov:hasprovenance or prov:has_provenance
>> > >
>> > > ?
>> > >
>> > > Paul
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Do you mean the element that is generated into the header of the
>> HTML? If
>> > >> that is the only place it appears, I think we can change that for the
>> > >> published PR document before handing it over to the webmaster.
>> > >>
>> > >> Ivan
>> > >>
>> > >> On Feb 26, 2013, at 10:42 , Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> It's in the <link> element we added last week.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On 26/02/2013 09:40, Ivan Herman wrote:
>> > >>>> Graham,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I am not sure I understand something.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I have looked at the prov-o document, and that document does not
>> > >> mention the prov:hasProvenance term. Ie, where does this term appear
>> in any
>> > >> of the four Rec-track documents? More importantly, does it appear,
>> if it
>> > >> does, in a normative section?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Ivan
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> On Feb 26, 2013, at 10:30 , Graham Klyne<GK@ninebynine.org>
>>  wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> Hi,
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> [I'm keeping this off-list for now, because if Ivan says there's
>> > >> nothing we can do at this juncture, I see little point in opening
>> the issue
>> > >> for wider discussion.  I am cc'ing www-archive so there's a record
>> of our
>> > >> discussion.]
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> This is a bit embarrassing, given an email I wrote just a couple
>> of
>> > >> days ago.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> I'm working through comments on PROV-AQ, and Stian has raised the
>> > >> following:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> [[
>> > >>>>> 32) According to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988#section-4.2
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> When extension relation types are compared, they MUST be compared
>> as
>> > >>>>>    strings (after converting to URIs if serialised in a different
>> > >>>>>    format, such as a Curie [W3C.CR-curie-20090116]) in a case-
>> > >>>>>    insensitive fashion, character-by-character.  Because of this,
>> all-
>> > >>>>>    lowercase URIs SHOULD be used for extension relations.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Should we not have relation URIs that are all lowercase to avoid
>> > >> problems?  ie.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Link:<http://acme.example.org/provenance/super-widget>;
>> > >>>>>            rel="http://www.w3.org/ns/prov#hasprovenance"
>> > >>>>> ]]
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> I had completely missed this in RFC5988, and had forgotten about
>> > >> Stian's comment when I replied a couple of days ago.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> If we hadn't just been through the incorporation of provenance
>> links
>> > >> into the published documents, I'd suggest changing "hasProvenance" to
>> > >> "has_provenance" to avoid the problems noted.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> So, what now?  I see a few options:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> (a) keep the same name, and simply note that, when used as a link
>> > >> relation, prov:hasProvenance is compared case-insensitively.
>> > >>>>> (b) if it's not too late, change the property name
>> > >>>>> (c) define a second property that is all lowercase, and declared
>> > >> equivalent to the first.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> As far as I can tell, the main consequence of going with option
>> (a) is
>> > >> that we MUST NOT in future define a different property/relation
>> > >> prov:hasprovenance, as under some circumstances covered by RFC5988,
>> this
>> > >> would be indistinguishable from prov:hasProvenance.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Given where we now are, my inclination would be to stay with
>> things as
>> > >> they are, but add a note reserving the all lower-case versions of
>> > >> prov:hasProvenance, etc., from future use because of the case
>> insensitivity
>> > >> comparison requirement.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> #g
>> > >>>>> --
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> ----
>> > >>>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>> > >>>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>> > >>>> mobile: +31-641044153
>> > >>>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>> Professor Luc Moreau
>> > >>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>> > >>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>> > >>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>> > >>> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ----
>> > >> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>> > >> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>> > >> mobile: +31-641044153
>> > >> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > --
>> > Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>> > http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
>> > Assistant Professor
>> > - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>> >   Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
>> > - The Network Institute
>> > VU University Amsterdam
>>
>>
>> ----
>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>> mobile: +31-641044153
>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>  --
> --
> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
> Assistant Professor
> - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>   Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
> - The Network Institute
> VU University Amsterdam
>
>
> --
> Professor Luc Moreau
> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>
>


-- 
--
Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
Assistant Professor
- Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
  Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
- The Network Institute
VU University Amsterdam
Received on Wednesday, 27 February 2013 10:27:16 GMT

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