- From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:54:12 +0000
- To: Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org>
- Cc: Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>, www-archive <www-archive@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CA+ri+Vnd0EL9xjumtNXMtodOWy4D5XMyS85JZV=xEf0-RCNtRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Jeff, Thanks for the clarification. I guess what Ian says and what he does are 2 different things, which is true for all of us at one time or another. So his oft stated stance about consensus based spec development , for example [1] "I have no intention of developing HTML5 based on *consensus*" Is really just empty words. >This is a fair concern. If you have specific concerns about your work >being "undermined", I hope you are bringing your concerns to the Chairs, >to Philippe, and to me. I have brought specific concerns up in the past with the chairs and will continue to do so. I will also refer them to you if I have concerns about their resolution. [1] http://markmail.org/message/foqvpokz7qyuivgd with regards Stevef On 26 January 2012 14:11, Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org> wrote: > On 1/26/2012 5:12 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote: > > hi Jeffe, > > Ian has stated in response [1]: > > "I follow it, like everyone else, exactly to the extent that I think it > requires us to do the right thing for the Web. When the process requires > us to do something bad for the Web, I ignore it." > > I say fair play to him and as long as any other participant in the process > can opt out of the process whenever he/she thinks it's "bad for the Web," > and the W3C is OK with that, then we have a level playing field for all > particpants. > > > Noone has a free pass to opt out of the process. As I said in [1], there > have been exceptions where Ian has not followed the W3C process and we have > successfully worked through disagreements. Noone's choice to "opt out" > are blithely ignored by the Chairs. > > [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0031.html > > > > but his stament does appear to contradict your statement: > > "he agrees to follow the W3C Process" > > > I don't interpret his statement in the same way you do. > > I understand your literal interpretation (since he is not following 100% > of the rules all of the time it means he is not following the process). As > he says in his response to me [2], it is his view that sometimes he follows > it more closely than W3C staff. Since I believe that W3C staff follows the > process (possibly with some mistakes), I conclude that Hixie believes he > follows the process. As he says in [2], he does not claim to. > Nonetheless, he does. > > [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0032.html > > > > For people such as myself who have invested a lot of time and energy > working within, what is at times a tortuous process, in effecting change to > the HTML5 specification, for what I believe to be the 'right thing for the > Web'. I don't want to see that work undermined and undone by someone who is > in a powerful position, because he or she thinks they own rights on what is > the 'right thing for the Web'. > > > This is a fair concern. If you have specific concerns about your work > being "undermined", I hope you are bringing your concerns to the Chairs, to > Philippe, and to me. > > > > > [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0032.html > > > best regards > > Stevef > > On 25 January 2012 23:58, Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org> wrote: > >> On 1/25/2012 4:53 PM, Steve Faulkner wrote: >> >> Hi Philippe, >> >> Ian Hickson wrote: [1] >> >> On Wed, 25 Jan 2012, Philippe Le Hegaret wrote: >> > >> > as a reminder, as editor of several documents for the Web Applications >> > and HTML Working Group, you agreed to follow the W3C Process, as well as >> > following the HTML Decision Policy of the HTML Working Group. If this is >> > no longer the case, you should let the Chairs of those Groups aware of >> > this, >> >> The chairs of both groups, as well as yourself, and Jeff, are fully aware >> of this already. >> >> >> Let me say what I am fully aware of: >> >> 1. Ian has fundamental disagreements with the way that the W3C process >> works. He has been very clear about that. >> >> 2. Nonetheless, for situations that he is wearing his hat as Editor >> within a W3C Working Group, he agrees to follow the W3C Process. Part of >> the reason is a mutual desire to have HTML work proceed both in W3C (under >> its process) and WHATWG (under its process), and to keep HTML 5 as aligned >> as possible with HTML LS. >> >> 3. There is already a consensus that some of the points that he has made >> about standardization processes are good points - although not for the >> goals of W3C Working Groups. Many of these points have been adopted for >> W3C Community Groups which has different objectives. >> >> 4. On the whole, the Chairs have reported to me that they are satisfied >> that Ian has fulfilled the commitments (point 2 above) to follow the W3C >> Process. There have been exceptions which (to date) we have successfully >> worked through. >> >> 5. Ian is so much "bought in" to W3C, that on one occasion where he >> thought the Chairs had made a mistake, he actually escalated the Chairs' >> decision to the W3C CEO. (nb., after a brief discussion between the CEO, >> Chairs, and Editor - all agreed that the Chairs and Editor would resolve >> the issue and the CEO did not enter the HTML 5 Decision Process.) >> >> >> >> -- >> Ian Hickson >> >> >> So, a working group member who plays a pivotal role does not agree >> to follow the W3C Process, as well as follow the HTML Decision Policy of >> the HTML Working Group. >> >> >> Hence Ian has been following the W3C Process. >> >> >> >> >> Why should any of us? >> >> regards >> Stevef >> >> >> >> On 25 January 2012 11:39, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> Hi Phillippe, >>> >>> >>> Ian Hickson wrote [1]: >>> >>> "Nobody really follows the W3C process. Some claim to, others (such as >>> myself) do not. Being on a W3C list certainly doesn't imply anything >>> about >>> one's actions with respect to the hallowed Process." >>> >>> >>> I have acted under the assumption that participation in working groups >>> is dependent on my agreeing to, and attempting in good faith, to abide by >>> W3C process, it appears that I and others have been mislead. >>> >>> >>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0025.html >>> >>> >>> -- >>> with regards >>> >>> Steve Faulkner >>> Technical Director - TPG >>> >>> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | >>> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner >>> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - >>> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ >>> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> with regards >> >> Steve Faulkner >> Technical Director - TPG >> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ >> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html >> >> >> >> > > > -- > with regards > > Steve Faulkner > Technical Director - TPG > > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ > Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html > > > > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Thursday, 26 January 2012 15:55:14 UTC