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RE: [widgets] Re: i18n comments:

From: Phillips, Addison <addison@lab126.com>
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 01:29:57 -0400
To: "art.barstow@nokia.com" <art.barstow@nokia.com>, ext Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
CC: "'Felix Sasaki'" <felix.sasaki@fh-potsdam.de>, "'Marcos Caceres'" <marcosc@opera.com>, "'Robin Berjon'" <robin@berjon.com>, "'Steven Pemberton'" <Steven.Pemberton@cwi.nl>, "'Doug Schepers'" <schepers@w3.org>, "'Charles McCathieNevile'" <chaals@opera.com>, "'www-archive'" <www-archive@w3.org>
Message-ID: <C7A5719F1E562149BA9171F58BEE2CA4129E249A17@EX-IAD6-B.ant.amazon.com>
Dear Art, et al,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I have reviewed the 27 May 2010 draft posted by your editor in addition to the previous draft. I have only a few minor, editorial comments:

1. Language tags are presented as lowercase. While case has no meaning in language tags, they are typically canonicalized (and are recommended to use) the case conventions in BCP 47. See section 2.1.1 [1].

2. In Section 8.4 there is an example of the empty language tag with the comment "The user agents will treat this as unlocalized content." This should be "user agent" singular. More importantly, there should be a distinction between "unlocalized" and "non-linguistic" or "undetermined" or at least "default content" (which is what you mean). Note that the tag "und" represents text whose language cannot be determined. I would suggest "default content" here (and elsewhere).

3. In Section 9.1 there is a term "i18n string". We typically do not like the term "i18n" to be used for anything (my car's license/number plate and my .sig are exceptions to this rule ;-)), and, in this case, it doesn't convey any meaning. I would prefer the term "localizable string", "localizable", or "language string".

4. I personally disagree with Richard's comment #20 [2]. The empty language tag is related to locale fallback in that it represents the root of the locale hierarchy, a position you could fill with "i-default", save that that value doesn't play nicely with BCP 47 fallback. The xml:lang="" is the default content. I don't agree that this is "unlocalized", which is your description. See my comment #2 above. 

In general, this document is greatly improved and I endorse your publication of it. Thanks for all of your help in supporting internationalization in this spec.

Regards,

Addison

[1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47#section-2.1.1

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect (Lab126)
Chair (W3C I18N, IETF IRI WGs)

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arthur Barstow [mailto:art.barstow@nokia.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:54 AM
> To: ext Richard Ishida; Phillips, Addison
> Cc: 'Felix Sasaki'; 'Marcos Caceres'; 'Robin Berjon'; 'Steven
> Pemberton'; 'Doug Schepers'; 'Charles McCathieNevile'; 'www-
> archive'
> Subject: Re: [widgets] Re: i18n comments:
> 
> Richard - thanks for sending your comments.
> 
> Addison - Richard indicates below you are going to respond (i.e.
> follow-up). What is your plan to do so?
> 
> -Art
> 
> On 5/20/10 12:32 PM, ext Richard Ishida wrote:
> > Hi Art,
> >
> > We discussed this at the i18n telecon last night and Addison has
> an action
> > to respond to you quickly to (I hope) let you know that all is ok.
> >
> > However, I gave the document one more read through myself this
> afternoon
> > just for good measure, and I noticed a small number of editorial
> nits that I
> > will send along in a few minutes in separate emails.
> >
> > One additional comment that's not worth a separate email: Yves
> Savourel's
> > name is missing the final 'l' in the acknowledgements section.
> >
> > As always, a summary of all our comments can be found at
> > http://www.org/International/reviews/0907-widgets-pc/  with links
> to email
> > threads.  Comments on a white background are deemed to be
> fixed/closed.
> >
> > I added one substantive comment (number 20) that reflects
> something I
> > mentioned in an email on 26th March, but I am assuming that it is
> now too
> > late to change it, so I marked the comment as closed.  (If it is
> not too
> > late to change it, please consider doing so, of course.) I will
> send an
> > email for that one too, just to keep the books tidy.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > RI
> >
> > ============
> > Richard Ishida
> > Internationalization Lead
> > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > http://rishida.net/
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Arthur Barstow [mailto:art.barstow@nokia.com]
> > Sent: 12 May 2010 17:14
> > To: Richard Ishida; Addison Phillips; Felix Sasaki
> > Cc: Marcos Caceres; Robin Berjon; Steven Pemberton; Doug Schepers;
> Charles
> > McCathieNevile; www-archive
> > Subject: Fwd: [widgets] Re: i18n comments:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Marcos has completed all of the changes to the Widget Packaging
> and
> > Configuration (P&C) spec related to the new<span>  element and
> dir attribute
> > and the removal of the ITS references. The latest Editor's Draft
> that
> > includes these changes is:
> >
> > [ED]http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/
> >
> > Would the I18N WG please review the changes and submit comments
> to
> > public-webapps?
> >
> > Given the last formal publication of this spec was a CR and we
> consider the
> > <span>  and dir changes as a replacement for ITS, our plan (once
> we have
> > sufficient implementation data) is to move directly to PR and not
> publish
> > another LC or CR. As such, we want to know if the I18N WG sees
> any issues
> > with [ED].
> >
> > -Thanks, Art Barstow
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> >
> > From: Arthur Barstow<Art.Barstow@nokia.com>
> > Date: April 6, 2010 10:05:33 AM EDT
> > To: Addison Phillips<addison@amazon.com>, Marcos Caceres
> > <marcosc@opera.com>, Felix Sasaki<felix.sasaki@fh-potsdam.de>,
> "Martin J.
> > Dürst"<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Richard Ishida<ishida@w3.org>
> > Cc:public-i18n-core@w3.org, public-webapps<public-webapps@w3.org>
> > Subject: [widgets] Re: i18n comments:
> >
> > Hi Marcos, All,
> >
> > Has the I18N Core WG reviewed Marcos' latest proposal? If yes,
> where can we
> > find their comments; if no, when can we expect a reply?
> >
> > -Art Barstow
> >
> > On Mar 30, 2010, at 11:07 AM, ext Marcos Caceres wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 29/03/10 5:16 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> > This doesn't make any sense to me. I think you are over-thinking
> this.
> >
> > The author element contains the author's *NAME*. It can also
> include an href
> > and an email attribute. UTR#36 refers explicitly to IRIs and IDNA
> addresses,
> > which would be the values of these attributes. However, it does
> NOT refer to
> > plain text (the body of the element 'author') which is what the
> 'dir'
> > attribute really applies to. To not provide bidirectional
> overrides for the
> > author's name strikes me as incredibly short sighted, given that
> you can
> > override any higher-level element. To have one place in your
> configuration
> > document that requires controls is not to improve security, it is
> to reduce
> > usability.
> >
> > I've updated the spec and the RelaxNG to include "rlo" and "lro".
> >
> > It would make far more sense for you to cite UTR#36 with regard
> to an
> > implementations presentation of the href or email attributes,
> suggesting (or
> > forbidding) the application of the dir attribute to these values.
> But the
> > body of the<author>   element needs the bidi markup and should
> not depend on
> > Unicode bidi controls.
> >
> > I trashed the old note, made this new note.
> >
> > [[
> > Note: Implementations intending to display IRIs and IDNA
> addresses found
> > in the configuration document are strongly encouraged to follow
> the
> > security advice given in [UTR36]. This could include, for example,
> > behaving as if the dir attribute had no effect on any IRI
> attributes,
> > path attributes, and the author element's email attribute.
> > ]]
> >
> > IRI attributes, path attributes are defined in the specification.
> >
> > Any better?
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Marcos
> >
> >
> > --
> > Marcos Caceres
> > Opera Software
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
> > Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2866 - Release Date:
> 05/11/10
> > 19:40:00
> >
> >
Received on Friday, 28 May 2010 05:30:31 GMT

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