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Re: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)

From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 13:15:26 -0400
To: David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
Cc: sailesh.panchang@deque.com, "'Michael A Squillace'" <masquill@us.ibm.com>, wai-xtech@w3.org
Message-ID: <20080527171526.GD5726@rednote.net>

For every song that has lyrics, for every opera septet that has a
different lyric for each of the six voices even as they sing together in
perfect harmony?

Yes, I'd absolutely love that. I'd find it profoundly useful--but not in
alt.


Alt is simply too lightweight a mechanism to do anything more tha
minimal meta identification of the object properly.

For that septet I'd want a super-Daisy kind of smil that would allow me
to track, for instance, the second alto's words sync'd to the singing.
On my next pass I'd like to switch to the first alto and "see" the
braille display as the notes are sung.

Oh, and by the way, that opera is probably in a language I don't
understand well. Having studied opera history while procuring my
advanced degrees in music I know how the professors teach people to
manage that--one finger on the original language as it's sung, and
another finger tracking the English translation.

So, now we need not only six parallel tracks of smil data containing
lyrics, we need each of those orthogonally linked to some extensible
number of language translations.

Certainly not in alt.

Nor is alt a suitable mechanism for meta data about the object. I want
to know the composer and the lyricist for that opera. I want to know
what act of the opera that septet is in. I want to know what preceeds
and what follows that particular number. I'm beginning to describe a
tree of nested data about the work that is profoundly useful to have if
on line content is ever going to supercede printed libretto or score.
But alt isn't the mechanism to get us there.

Janina

David Poehlman writes:
> 
> Your understanding is incorrect and if wcag2 allows this, it is incorrect as 
> well.  If it is verbal, it is written and expression can be provided in the 
> writing.  I don't know if you have ever seen this or not, but there are 
> people who sign songs and get the meaning across quite well with gestures 
> and words.  When a score is writtten, it can convey all of this information 
> so Why should a huge population be left out.  I don't advocate that this be 
> done in alt but it should be done perhaps as a synchronized alternative.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sailesh Panchang" <sailesh.panchang@deque.com>
> To: "'Michael A Squillace'" <masquill@us.ibm.com>; <wai-xtech@w3.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:51 AM
> Subject: RE: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)
> 
> 
> David,
> 
> WCAG 2 says:
> 
> ". Sensory: If non-text content is primarily intended to create a  specific
> sensory experience
> 
> , then text alternatives at least provide descriptive identification of the
> non-text content."
> 
> My understanding is that not all music needs to be captioned even if it
> there is verbal audio content.
> 
> Sailesh Panchang
> Accessibility Services Manager (Web and Software)
> Deque Systems Inc. (www.deque.com)
> 11130 Sunrise Valley Drive, Suite #140,
> Reston VA 20191
> Phone: 703-225-0380 (ext 105)
> E-mail: sailesh.panchang@deque.com
> 
>   _____
> 
> From: wai-xtech-request@w3.org [mailto:wai-xtech-request@w3.org] On Behalf
> Of Michael A Squillace
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:20 AM
> To: wai-xtech@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even instrumental music? What about a song that has no lyrics, a classical
> piece for instance? Do you plan to caption those, too? My point is that
> music is as inheritly audio as photographs are visual and to render them
> accessible to all in any way flies in the face of reasonableness.
> 
> --> Mike Squillace
> IBM Human Ability and Accessibility Center
> Austin, TX
> 
> W:512.823.7423
> M:512.970.0066
> 
> masquill@us.ibm.com
> www.ibm.com/able
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "David Poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> Sent by: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
> 
> 05/27/2008 09:54 AM
> 
> 
> To
> 
> <wai-xtech@w3.org>, Michael A Squillace/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> 
> 
> cc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subject
> 
> Re: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, every verbal audio should be captioned or texted.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael A Squillace" <masquill@us.ibm.com>
> To: <wai-xtech@w3.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:59 AM
> Subject: Re: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)
> 
> 
> Reposting as not sure msg made it through first time....
> 
> I must admit that I'm a little staggered at the amount of conversation
> flickr has produced with regard to alt tags. Responding, here, as a
> totally blind web content
> consumer and not as a member of the IBM Human Ability & Accessibility
> Center, you can put all of the alt tags on flickr that you desire - I'm
> still not going to visit
> it because photos are inheritly visual entities. For the dozen or so
> photos that have received thousands of views (and that, presumably,
> resemble the news
> broadcast rather than the private telephone call), 100 or 150 characters
> of alt text is not going to make the photo any more useful to me. Are we
> next going to
> suggest that all of the songs available on the web need closed caption so
> that deaf folks can enjoy them, too?  As someone who is blind, I realized
> a long time
> ago that photography, driving, and painting are endeavors in which I am
> simply not going to engage and I think it detracts from the conversation
> about the real
> utility of alt to concentrate on what I see as, indeed, an edge case. Of
> course, I am only one person and I'm sure that many of my colleagues and
> fellow PWDs
> will vehemently disagree with me.
> 
> 
> --> Mike Squillace
> IBM Human Ability and Accessibility Center
> Austin, TX
> 
> W:512.823.7423
> M:512.970.0066
> 
> masquill@us.ibm.com
> www.ibm.com/able
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 

Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.202.595.7777;	sip:janina@a11y.org
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada
Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com

Chair, Open Accessibility	janina@a11y.org	
Linux Foundation		http://a11y.org
Received on Tuesday, 27 May 2008 17:17:53 GMT

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