W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > wai-xtech@w3.org > May 2008

Re: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)

From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 13:41:39 -0400
To: David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
Cc: sailesh.panchang@deque.com, "'Michael A Squillace'" <masquill@us.ibm.com>, wai-xtech@w3.org
Message-ID: <20080527174139.GE5726@rednote.net>

Oops, septet equals seven voices.

Six voices would be a sextet.

Yes, I knew that! <grin>

Janina

Janina Sajka writes:
> 
> For every song that has lyrics, for every opera septet that has a
> different lyric for each of the six voices even as they sing together in
> perfect harmony?
> 
> Yes, I'd absolutely love that. I'd find it profoundly useful--but not in
> alt.
> 
> 
> Alt is simply too lightweight a mechanism to do anything more tha
> minimal meta identification of the object properly.
> 
> For that septet I'd want a super-Daisy kind of smil that would allow me
> to track, for instance, the second alto's words sync'd to the singing.
> On my next pass I'd like to switch to the first alto and "see" the
> braille display as the notes are sung.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, that opera is probably in a language I don't
> understand well. Having studied opera history while procuring my
> advanced degrees in music I know how the professors teach people to
> manage that--one finger on the original language as it's sung, and
> another finger tracking the English translation.
> 
> So, now we need not only six parallel tracks of smil data containing
> lyrics, we need each of those orthogonally linked to some extensible
> number of language translations.
> 
> Certainly not in alt.
> 
> Nor is alt a suitable mechanism for meta data about the object. I want
> to know the composer and the lyricist for that opera. I want to know
> what act of the opera that septet is in. I want to know what preceeds
> and what follows that particular number. I'm beginning to describe a
> tree of nested data about the work that is profoundly useful to have if
> on line content is ever going to supercede printed libretto or score.
> But alt isn't the mechanism to get us there.
> 
> Janina
> 
> David Poehlman writes:
> > 
> > Your understanding is incorrect and if wcag2 allows this, it is incorrect as 
> > well.  If it is verbal, it is written and expression can be provided in the 
> > writing.  I don't know if you have ever seen this or not, but there are 
> > people who sign songs and get the meaning across quite well with gestures 
> > and words.  When a score is writtten, it can convey all of this information 
> > so Why should a huge population be left out.  I don't advocate that this be 
> > done in alt but it should be done perhaps as a synchronized alternative.
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Sailesh Panchang" <sailesh.panchang@deque.com>
> > To: "'Michael A Squillace'" <masquill@us.ibm.com>; <wai-xtech@w3.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:51 AM
> > Subject: RE: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)
> > 
> > 
> > David,
> > 
> > WCAG 2 says:
> > 
> > ". Sensory: If non-text content is primarily intended to create a  specific
> > sensory experience
> > 
> > , then text alternatives at least provide descriptive identification of the
> > non-text content."
> > 
> > My understanding is that not all music needs to be captioned even if it
> > there is verbal audio content.
> > 
> > Sailesh Panchang
> > Accessibility Services Manager (Web and Software)
> > Deque Systems Inc. (www.deque.com)
> > 11130 Sunrise Valley Drive, Suite #140,
> > Reston VA 20191
> > Phone: 703-225-0380 (ext 105)
> > E-mail: sailesh.panchang@deque.com
> > 
> >   _____
> > 
> > From: wai-xtech-request@w3.org [mailto:wai-xtech-request@w3.org] On Behalf
> > Of Michael A Squillace
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:20 AM
> > To: wai-xtech@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Even instrumental music? What about a song that has no lyrics, a classical
> > piece for instance? Do you plan to caption those, too? My point is that
> > music is as inheritly audio as photographs are visual and to render them
> > accessible to all in any way flies in the face of reasonableness.
> > 
> > --> Mike Squillace
> > IBM Human Ability and Accessibility Center
> > Austin, TX
> > 
> > W:512.823.7423
> > M:512.970.0066
> > 
> > masquill@us.ibm.com
> > www.ibm.com/able
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "David Poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> > Sent by: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
> > 
> > 05/27/2008 09:54 AM
> > 
> > 
> > To
> > 
> > <wai-xtech@w3.org>, Michael A Squillace/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> > 
> > 
> > cc
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Subject
> > 
> > Re: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, every verbal audio should be captioned or texted.
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Michael A Squillace" <masquill@us.ibm.com>
> > To: <wai-xtech@w3.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: Is Flickr an Edge Case? (was Re: HTML Action Item 54)
> > 
> > 
> > Reposting as not sure msg made it through first time....
> > 
> > I must admit that I'm a little staggered at the amount of conversation
> > flickr has produced with regard to alt tags. Responding, here, as a
> > totally blind web content
> > consumer and not as a member of the IBM Human Ability & Accessibility
> > Center, you can put all of the alt tags on flickr that you desire - I'm
> > still not going to visit
> > it because photos are inheritly visual entities. For the dozen or so
> > photos that have received thousands of views (and that, presumably,
> > resemble the news
> > broadcast rather than the private telephone call), 100 or 150 characters
> > of alt text is not going to make the photo any more useful to me. Are we
> > next going to
> > suggest that all of the songs available on the web need closed caption so
> > that deaf folks can enjoy them, too?  As someone who is blind, I realized
> > a long time
> > ago that photography, driving, and painting are endeavors in which I am
> > simply not going to engage and I think it detracts from the conversation
> > about the real
> > utility of alt to concentrate on what I see as, indeed, an edge case. Of
> > course, I am only one person and I'm sure that many of my colleagues and
> > fellow PWDs
> > will vehemently disagree with me.
> > 
> > 
> > --> Mike Squillace
> > IBM Human Ability and Accessibility Center
> > Austin, TX
> > 
> > W:512.823.7423
> > M:512.970.0066
> > 
> > masquill@us.ibm.com
> > www.ibm.com/able
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.202.595.7777;	sip:janina@a11y.org
> Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://CapitalAccessibility.Com
> 
> Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada
> Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com
> 
> Chair, Open Accessibility	janina@a11y.org	
> Linux Foundation		http://a11y.org

-- 

Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.202.595.7777;	sip:janina@a11y.org
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC	http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada
Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com

Chair, Open Accessibility	janina@a11y.org	
Linux Foundation		http://a11y.org
Received on Tuesday, 27 May 2008 17:45:48 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Friday, 27 April 2012 13:15:49 GMT