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FW: draft minutes from 27 july 2007 DHTML call

From: Evans, Donald <Donald.Evans@corp.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:27:57 -0400
Message-ID: <1D65257B9F22C84F89F812FB1C24CA8D024E4DD6@EXCHNVA02.ad.office.aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory J. Rosmaita [mailto:oedipus@hicom.net] 
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 1:06 PM
To: Evans, Donald
Subject: draft minutes from 27 july 2007 DHTML call


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                     DHTML Sub-team Teleconference

27 Jul 2007

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/27-wai-xtech-irc


          Al_Gilman, Becky_Gibson, Lisa_Papas, Becky_Gibson,
          Gregory_J._Rosmaita, Don Evans


          Gregory J. Rosmaita


     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]checkboxes
     * [5]Summary of Action Items

   <scribe> scribe: Gregory J. Rosmaita

   <scribe> scribenick: oedipus

   Becky: if say right-left arrow with menu posted -- does that mean
   drop down? perhaps is covered (read from draft); with any level it
   would be same, right?
   ... spacebar opens actionable item -- exposes or executes?
   ... when have focus on menu item, pressing enter will execute the
   menu action

   GJR: XHTML2 group interested in 3 states: give focus, hang-fire
   (inspect), and fire

   Becky: nested menus -- not a drop-down menu -- or rather is but
   vertical instead of horizontal

   AG: how do you integrate abstract tree behavior

   Becky: right need both

   AlG: use menu or menubar consistently should be in best prActices
   ... if works like menubar, should follow menu keyboard conventions

   Becky: ok

   <scribe> ACTION: Becky - post to xtech [recorded in

   Don: checkboxes?

   Becky: can do without proposal; should decide next one before
   telecon concludes so can discuss next meeting

   Chris: which keys are available by script events if running IE on
   Windows with JAWS or Window-Eyes?

   GJR: there is a passthrough key in most screen readers

   AlG: gregory explained how to get through screen-reader, but doesn't
   mean can get to application or script
   ... highly educated best-guess at keybindings that will work without
   conflict; some will require alternate methods; separate line of
   development around reengineering accesskey -- poster child for fuzzy
   implementatino and definition; need to be some kind of ARIA approach
   to getting raw materials in to bind to

   <scribe> DonE: beginning to build javascript applications for
   applications; doing tree views, tab interfaces, etc.; not gracefully
   handled by at

   AlG: grep accessibility lists (w3c-wai-ua@w3.org) for accesskey

   GJR: start with existing keybindings defined by devs

   AlG: angle in action item to SAP to come up with working input
   tokenizer (text entry field with hidden grammar to check contents of
   text entry field) -- they have a validate action -- user can request
   it -- trick is hotkey in text edit mode also next to a button
   performing same fucntionality; style guide - anything give
   keybinding to somewhere there is an isolated action that could be
   pre-validated -- need right association between label on button and
   ... need second level in overall methodology

   Chris: attempted to take WinXP, MSIE7 and JAWS to ascertain what
   keys are already mapped -- short list; check against mozilla, even
   less; add window-eyes and you're left with nothing

   AlG: widget roles for keyboard access valuable because so much
   keybindings in AT

   Chris: handle elsewhere?

   AlG: perceive problem, use cases will get others to solve problem;
   need test interaction and usability
   ... part of the solution -- can machine follow from edit box with
   hotkey to the label that triggers the same event; stress in
   programming style level

   Chris: just wanted to ensure issue on table

   AlG: fact that have an issue is clear; what we need is a solution,
   which Becky is working on

   Becky: going to come into conflicts; how does user move focus from
   rich text editor to toolbar then back to rich text editor; can't
   make tabbable, will have to assign a key; will come up with proposal
   for dojo and submit to DHTML for consideration

   <scribe> DonE: IE7 versus IE6 -- tabindex of positive number to DIV
   or SPAN to get focus -- any difference between IE6 and IE7?

   Becky: not had to do anything different for IE6 and IE7

   AlG: if have test case, bring up to mark silvey -- microsoft rep to

   Don: some works in IE6 some in IE7, in our experience


   Becky: checkboxes have checked, unchecked - space is trigger

   AlG: how many systems support that?

   Becky: have to check; for radio buttons, enter isn't supported;
   checkboxes enter and space

   GJR: tri-state for checkbox;

   Becky: isn't it part of group? what is use case

   AlG: software install -- summary install -- get checkboxes in
   advanced mode, can partially check options

   <scribe> DonE: how do you trigger a partially checked check?

   Becky: only a programmatic state?

   AlG: if activate custom, enter dialog; if use to check and uncheck,
   will push a partial?
   ... if using WAI ARIA states on checkbox, can have partial value

   <scribe> DonE: ARIA states checked unchecked partially checked --
   question is, which is child of other

   Becky: IE7 only supports 2 options
   ... don't use key if grouped - go from one to another

   AlG: caret in edit box, hit enter and submitted form, rather than
   making newline in text field

   Becky: how to do that without a save or cancel button is still

   Chris: checked or unchecked - partial derived state --
   programmatically set

   Becky: checked and unchecked by mouse click or spacebar -- a toggle

   <scribe> DonE: partial checkbox is programmatically determined

   Becky: specify that all checkboxes have labels?

   AlG: spec will require that -- can help people in coaching on good

   Chris: inverse - if on partially checked checkbox and hit space
   should all children be affected? typical GUI behavior

   AlG: chasing a will'o'the wisp -- if light, full and custom are 3
   choices, hitting spacebar should get you into finer grain

   Becky: is a case where use GUI app, have nested checkboxes; pick
   one, top-level checkbox shows partial

   AlG: does spacebar select all or clear all -- what is sequence

   <scribe> DonE: partial to off to on -- can't get back to partial; if
   hit spacebar, turns it off, if go into details all children
   checkboxes have been cleared

   Chris: font list - if turn on half of them, should first click on
   partially checked checkbox

   AlG: need to check other apps to find out if uniformity applied

   <scribe> DonE: reflected in options

   GJR: often when use multiple select option, often loose focus when
   inspecting options; could substitute checkboxes with partial states
   (lynx model: comobo boxes as radio buttons; multiple select combo
   boxes as checkboxes)

   Becky: mapped browser behavior, stick a style rule over it, for
   performance reasons decided to let UA do most of the work;

   AlG: pragmatic decision need to spell out clearly in Best Practices;
   clear conflict between browser behavior between browsers -- there is
   an HTML coding for radio button functionality, best practice is
   don't script, use HTML/XHTML -- feel will be different on different

   <scribe> DonE: checkboxes: 2 state and 3 state; 2 state select or
   deselect with space; 3 state if partially checked, spacebar fully
   checked and so are child elements

   LisaP: from SAP, volunteered to be integrator editor for best
   practices document which include keybinding decisions

   <scribe> DonE: valueable skill

   LisaP: about a month away

   <scribe> DonE: recommendations for agenda?

   Becky: Earl has a lot to say about issues posted to list; not sure
   ready to share -- brings up issues for ARIA team -- dojo accordian
   container just a tab container, earl working on much more complex
   accordion -- have to figure out how to distinguish through UI; will
   ping Earl offlist
   ... need to add a few more use cases for menus to ensure they are

   AlG: request for ChrisB - how to construct context menus

   ChrisB: how to move focus to create a dom event that at notices

   AlG: agenda items for this group or no?

   ChrisB: generalized technique -- how some of these things can be

   AlG: input tokenizer needs menus; RichS working on drag-and-drop
   which includes menus
   ... idea of a prologue -- authored introduction; is there markup for
   author to indicate "this is what you need to pay attention to" --
   blew off aw custom rule, but still a use case hanging out there;
   ... context help and prologue -- need use cases

   Becky: need to address tabindex behavior and focus; one thing in
   control taht has tabindex=0 -- do we agree? should we make it
   official? from forum questions, think need to address

   AlG: may need 2 techniques: one that relies on ARIA support, one
   that shous how built-in portions of ML can be effectively used
   ... RichS has put work into talking about use cases on PF/ARIA wiki


      [7] http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA

   GJR: will send IRC log to DonE

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Becky - post to xtech [recorded in

   [End of minutes]
Received on Friday, 27 July 2007 17:28:18 UTC

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