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Re: MINUTES: W3C User Agent Telecon 26 April 2001

From: Jon Gunderson <jongund@uiuc.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 18:49:04 -0500
Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20010430184650.026ab0f8@staff.uiuc.edu>
To: menovak@facstaff.wisc.edu (mark novak)
Cc: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
Mark,
I think everyone agrees that this is a poor solution to the problem.  But 
it is a demonstration that it is not something that is not impossible for 
user agents to implement.  We certainly hope developers would not try to 
satisfy the guidelines using this combination of technologies, although 
there is nothing in the guidelines to stop a developer either.

Jon



At 03:10 PM 4/30/2001 -0500, mark novak wrote:
>hi Jon and Tim
>
>see MN 2 times below:
>
>
> >Attendance
> >
> >Chair:Jon Gunderson
> >
> >Scribe: Jim Allan
> >
> >Present:
> >Mickey Quenzer
> >Tim Lacy
> >David Poehlman
> >Eric Hansen
> >Gregory Rosmatia
> >
> >Regrets:
> >Ian Jacobs
> >Charles McCathieNevile
> >
> >Action Item Summary
> >
> >Open Action Items
> >
> >    1.IJ: Edit the text of checkpoints 2.1, 2.2, 8.1, and 8.2 so that UAs
> >are not required to conform for all formats that are implemented.
> >      Source: Minutes 19 April 2001 Teleconference
> >    2.IJ: Make mention of animations, text streams, and refresh in the
> >document.
> >      Source: Minutes 19 April 2001 Teleconference
> >    3.IJ: Coordinate usability testing of the guidelines (JRG volunteers to
> >be one of the testers).
> >      Source: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2001JanMar/0137
> >    4.CMN: Find out from SYMM WG whether repositioning of objects will
> >appear in the spec (or should be in UAAG).
> >      Source: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2001JanMar/0357
> >    5.RS: Send pointer to information about universal access gateway to the
> >WG.
> >      Source: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2001JanMar/0258
> >    6.GR: Review event checkpoints for techniques
> >    7.MQ: Review speech checkpoints
> >
> >New Action Items
> >
> >    1.JA: test object in opera
> >    2.DP: support for no-script HPR
> >    3.GR: support for no-script lynx longdesc - webspeak, HPR
> >    4.JG: check with opera how they comply with 2.4
> >    5.GR: write different markup (list of elements) that 2.9 applies to,
> >for clarification.
> >
> >Completed Action Items
> >
> >    1.DP: Review navigation checkpoints for techniques
> >    2.TL: CSS 1 compliance of IE
> >      IE XP will when rendering HTML strict documents
> >
> >
> >Minutes
> >
> >JG: want to document implementation plans for most recent draft
> >
> >JA: have developed a table for input of implementation reviews, inputting
> >Opera information
> >
> >JG: want documentation. going through checkpoints.
> >
> >MQ for speech implementation, I was looking at HPR. Is IBM reviewing their
> >document.
> >
> >JG: need to look for techniques
> >
> >MQ ok will do it
> >
> >1.1 Ensure that the user can operate the user agent fully throughkeyboard
> >input alone. [Priority 1] Bothcontent and
> >user agent.
> >
> >JG: cp 1.1 - any browser for all functionalities through keyboard
> >
> >TL: IE yes except text selection.
> >
> >JG: IE plus assistive tech will do text selection. send details to the list
> >
> >1.2 For the element with content focus, allow the user to activateany
> >explicitly associated input device event handlers
> >through keyboard input alone. [Priority 1] Content only.
> >
> >JG: cp 1.2 - event handlers that can be activated through keyboard in
> >win2000 with IE and narrator - have mouse in mouse out, combine with mouse
> >keys for clicking (a possible solution) accessible browser project-
> >navigate to event handlers, get a list and activate event (UIUC accessible
> >browser
> >project.
>
>MN:  Please keep in mind that MouseKeys is not a good long
>term solution for many, and that it is very difficult to use
>on laptop keyboards.   Can you use the "spacebar" or some
>such configurable key to "emulate" a mouse click in these situations ?
>
>
>
> >1.3 Ensure that every message (e.g., prompt, alert, notification, etc.)
> >that is a non-textelement and is part of the user
> >agent user interface has a textequivalent. [Priority 1] Useragent only.
> >
> >JG: cp 1.3
> >
> >TL: IE - yes. media player ??, they are improving
> >
> >2.1 For all format specificationsthat the user agent implements, make
> >contentavailable through the rendering
> >processes described by those specifications.[Priority 1] Content only.
> >
> >JG: cp 2.1 use rendering in specs. html 4 is weak
> >
> >GR: opera follows html spec for no script and error recovery. if script
> >does not execute then display "no script". broken script, turn scripts off,
> >
> >JG: this is a difficult checkpoint. question - abbreviation or acronym.
> >html doesn't say what to do with it. Keep in DOM
> >
> >GR: yes, in DOM, then UA or at can
> >
> >GR:ab it.
> >
> >JG: what about longdesc.
> >
> >GR: will look into it.
> >
> >TL: 2.1 reviewing list. IE, first DOM will reflect what is authored, will
> >hand off non-native to plugin, will do html, xml, most of the text stuff.
> >IE does not
> >support longdesc. planning for next version. trying to
> >
> >MQ webspeak would follow longdesc and open an new browser instance. needed
> >improvement.
> >
> >JG: only thing html 4.0 spec says. accessing longdesc must be different
> >from accessing href
> >
> >GR: HPR supports longdesc. treats it like an href. alerts user for 
> activation.
> >
> >TL: parts of html 4 that are not implemented. support html 3.2 and css1 and
> >parts of dom.
> >
> >JG: anticipate DOM for
> >
> >JA:va script - text note
> >
> >TL: don't know
> >
> >JG: any browser html 4 compliant
> >
> >JA: Netscape 6 ???
> >
> >Action TL: css 1 compliance of IE
> >
> >JG: some will change as html and css are modularized. don't know how this
> >will affect checkpoints and compliance. xhtml basic.
> >
> >JG: need to know about html version compliance for browsers.
> >
> >JG: is realmedia SMIL 1 compliant.
> >
> >GR: what about lpplayer,
> >
> >JA: supports SMIL as far
> >
> >check with issound for SMIL compliance -
> >
> >JA:
> >
> >2.2 For all text formats that the useragent implements, provide a view of
> >the text source. Text formats include at least
> >the following: (1) allmedia objects given an Internet media type of "text"
> >(e.g., text/plain,text/HTML, or text/*), and
> >(2) all SGML and XML applications, regardless ofInternet media type (e.g.,
> >HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.1, SMIL, SVG,
> >etc.).
> >
> >JG: 2.2 view of text source. - yes for nearly all
> >
> >2.3Allow globalconfiguration so that, for each piece of unrendered
> >conditional content "C", the user agent alerts the
> >user to the existence of the contentand provides access to it
> >
> >JG: 2.3 global configuration content access, conditional content
> >
> >JG: what about object
> >
> >GR: Netscape 6 has some support, if you use map to render text it renders
> >nothing
> >
> >JG: 4.75 will render it.
> >
> >GR: testing pages for guidelines
> >
> >GR:oup.
> >
> >JG: may have use ulist and div
> >
> >MQ webspeak may do this, list items, no script, no frames, alt
> >
> >JG: display alt, alternative content in object and image, captions, no
> >script, no frames,
> >
> >JA: no switch for captions in smile
> >
> >JG: opera - no script, no frames (if no frame information included, will
> >not generate a plac
> >
> >EHolder - no repair strategy), image, no longdesc.
> >
> >JG: - alt for image, ti
> >
> >TL:e through tool tip. no frames.
> >
> >TL: don't know if IE will display no script.
> >
> >GR: no frame only to be rendered if non support for frames (quotes from 
> spec)
> >
> >JA: IE seems to work, Netscape
> >
> >action JA: test object in opera
> >
> >GR: iframe should be included. did pages for testing that are archived
> >somewhere. wai/gl/test has test pages for browsers, assistive tech, user
> >expectations, functionalities. access key test pages, div etc.
> >
> >JG: may frame, iframe, longdesc, alt, no-script, object, no-frames no frame
> >- opera and lynx object - Netscape no-script - lynx, opera,
> >
> >action DP: support for no-script HPR
> >
> >action GR: support for no-script lynx longdesc - webspeak, HPR
> >
> >2.4 For content where user input is only possiblewithin a finite time
> >interval controlled by the user agent, allow
> >configuration to make the time interval "infinite". Do this bypausing
> >automatically at the end of each time interval
> >where user input ispossible, and resuming automatically after the user has
> >explicitly completedinput. In this
> >configuration, alert the user when the session has been pausedand which
> >enabledelements are time-sensitive.
> >
> >JG: 2.4 pausing
> >
> >JA: opera says they do
> >
> >JG: how
> >
> >JA: don't know.
> >
> >action JG: check with opera how they comply with 2.4
> >
> >2.5 Allow configuration or control sothat texttranscripts, collated text
> >transcripts, captions,and auditory descriptions
> >are rendered at the same time as the associated audiotracks and visualtracks
> >
> >JG: 2.5 caption. configuration of caption real does - has a switch window
> >media does quick time does, using pro version can turn on-off captions (by
> >deleting captions?)
> >
> >EH don't know of any. magpie is a creation engine. there is information
> >that serves role of transcript, but the player does not know what it is.
> >
> >2.6 Respect synchronization cuesduring rendering.
> >
> >JG: 2.6 synchronization real yes windows media yes
> >
> >2.7 Allow configuration to generate repair text when the user agent
> >recognizes that the author has failed to provide
> >conditional content that was required by the format specification.The user
> >agent may satisfy this checkpoint by
> >basing the repair text on any ofthe following available sources of
> >information: URI reference, content type, orelement
> >type.
> >
> >JG: 2.7 repair text - alt text, does anyone generate IE if no alt then IE
> >show href lynx - file name, nothing, or place holder text IE with
> >
> >JA:ws - similar to lynx, configurable (
> >
> >GR: may revise previous posting about JFW configuration)
> >
> >2.8 Allow configuration so that when the user agent recognizes that
> >conditional content required by the format
> >specification is present but empty (e.g., the empty string), the user
> >agenteither (1) generates no repairtext, or (2)
> >generates repair text as described in checkpoint 2.7.
> >
> >MQ HPR does something. 2.8 configuration - generate repair text - if alt
> >null IE render plac
> >
> >2.9 Allow configuration to render all conditional content automatically.
> >Provide access to this contentaccording to
> >format specifications or where unspecified, by applying one of thefollowing
> >techniques described in checkpoint 2.3:
> >1a, 2a, or 1b
> >
> >EH: older or not. IE with JFW - JFW says nothing, can configure to speak
> >images without alt. 2.9 configure - render all conditional content. ???
> >discussion about what checkpoint means. about SMIL and language tracks.
> >
> >EH in previous version of documents, automating pulling up of content out
> >of context.
> >
> >GR: if no frame has longdesc, provide some step through functionality. more
> >for querying to ask for selected items from a list of alternative
> >information to
> >display.
> >
> >JA: selecting caption and language tracks from a movie with 3 languages of
> >each.
> >
> >GR: in cases where you need to generate repair text, it is a way to find
> >repair text.
> >
> >JG: someone want to write technique
> >
> >action GR: write different markup (list of elements) that 2.9 applies to,
> >for clarification.
> >
> >2.10 Allow configuration not to render content in unsupported
> >naturallanguages. Indicate to the user in context that
> >author-suppliedcontent has not been rendered.
> >
> >JA: I am confused 2.10 configuration to not render content and inform user.
> >if you don't support a font for a language, browser would not render
> >language but render place holder. IE prompt to get different language, or
> >auto download, or do nothing,
> >
> >GR: technique-need demarcation for unrendered text should be in same
> >character set declared for page.
> >
> >TL: css conformance for windows xp, if strict mode declared, then css1
> >supported
> >
> >JG: organize a face to face in July or later, topic--conformance test
> >suites for developers, purpose for f2f try to bring in developers to
> >develop test suites
> >and recruiting. at this point in guidelines need to not change text but get
> >implementation (must be satisfied by 2 independent implementations). 
> need this
> >to move to candidate recommendation. not sure where yet.
> >
> >GR: sent uri for test documents. there is dom-ts@w3.org list. see W3 QA
> >(quality assurance) for more info. working on gl pages with UA in mind.
> >
> >JG: AOL working with Henter-Joyce, need to develop special api and
> >accessibility api because they do not meet their needs.
> >
> >TL: do not know about this. am very interested.
> >
> >JG: messaged Scott Totman (?) about this. may have both ST and
> >
> >TL: on call in two weeks to discuss.
> >
> >DP: adobe and AOL using MSAA and inte
> >
> >GR:ating it in their suites.
> >
> >TL: working with adobe to get MSAA on track.
> >
> >JG: AOL ask for relief from using standard API. concerned about proprietary
> >API for assistive technology. want developer and at people to use
> >standard.
> >
> >TL: IE 6 has beefed up DOM and MSAA support, round tripping to find either
> >place. closing hole as we find them.
>
>MN:  Tim, have you looked at the problem with "input type = file", that
>went around on the UA/IG list discussion last week?  MSAA was unable
>to "find" the button supplied by IE 5.5.....
>
>
>
>
> >GR: lynx supports no-script renders it inline.
> >
> >
> >Copyright    2001 W3C (MIT, INRIA, Keio ), All Rights Reserved. W3C
> >liability, trademark, document use and software licensing rules apply. Your
> >interactions with this site are in accordance with our public and Member
> >privacy statements.
> >Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
> >Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
> >Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
> >MC-574
> >College of Applied Life Studies
> >University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
> >1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820
> >
> >Voice: (217) 244-5870
> >Fax: (217) 333-0248
> >
> >E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
> >
> >WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
> >WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua

Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
MC-574
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu

WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
Received on Monday, 30 April 2001 19:48:50 GMT

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