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RE: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main" and HTML5 <main> element

From: Léonie Watson <tink@tink.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 17:01:16 -0000
To: "'Harry Loots'" <harry.loots@ieee.org>
Cc: "'Steve Faulkner'" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, "'W3C WAI ig'" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, "'Ian Hickson'" <ian@hixie.ch>, "'JF'" <john@foliot.ca>
Message-ID: <00fd01ce2b0c$b2225740$166705c0$@tink.co.uk>
Harry Loots wrote:

“Probably no more so than clicking on multiple skip links, as you traverse
header, main navigation, secondary navigation, etc, etc...”

 

Sorry, I meant inefficient from a UA implementation point of view. If the
objective is to move focus directly to the start of the main content, it
seems that hooking into a specific element is a more efficient and reliable
way to do it than by using a process of elimination. 

 

“The advantage of having such a technique, would be that a user can jump
from one block of (non-interesting) content to a next block of content with
a single shortcut key sequence. So that, even where developers have
forgotten to mark up blocks of content, and have forgotten to provide skip
links, users can still skip reasonably quickly to main content blocks.”

 

We already have that ability (in screen readers at least). HTML5 elements
and/or the ARIA landmark roles they map to facilitate movement between
chunks of content using a single key command.

 

One of the attractions of the main element is that it could facilitate a
single command to move focus directly to the main content area of the page.
Essentially like a skip link, but one that can be invoked from anywhere on
the page not just when focus is on a particular anchor.

 

This is already possible with role=”main” of course. The advantage of
mapping the main role to an HTML5 element is that it becomes a native part
of HTML, which increases the likelyhood it’ll be used.

 

So whether you move from one chunk of content to another and finally arrive
at the main content, or want to move directly to the main content area,
hooking that interaction into a specific element would seem to be the most
sensible way to approach it.

 

Léonie.

 

-- 

Carpe diem.

 

From: harry.loots@googlemail.com [mailto:harry.loots@googlemail.com] On
Behalf Of Harry Loots
Sent: 27 March 2013 16:30
To: tink@tink.co.uk
Cc: Steve Faulkner; W3C WAI ig; Ian Hickson; JF
Subject: Re: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main" and
HTML5 <main> element

 

Hi Léonie

But isn’t that a very inefficient way to get there?

Probably no more so than clicking on multiple skip links, as you traverse
header, main navigation, secondary navigation, etc, etc...

The advantage of having such a technique, would be that a user can jump from
one block of (non-interesting) content to a next block of content with a
single shortcut key sequence. So that, even where developers have forgotten
to mark up blocks of content, and have forgotten to provide skip links,
users can still skip reasonably quickly to main content blocks. 

Take care

Harry

 

 

On 27 March 2013 17:01, Léonie Watson <tink@tink.co.uk> wrote:

Harry Loots wrote:

“Here's how the Hixon proposal may work:



tab -> (jump to) <header> ignore, skip -> (jump to) <nav> ignore, skip ->
(jump to) <aside> ignore, skip -> (jump to) <div id="gallery"> stop, allow
user to read/view; 
next tab -> <div id="products"> stop, allow user to read/view; 
next tab -> <aside> ignore, skip -> <div id="contactUs"> stop, allow user to
read/view; 

next tab -> <footer> ignore, skip -> return to top....”

 

But isn’t that a very inefficient way to get there?

 

Léonie.

 

 

-- 

Carpe diem.

 

From: harry.loots@googlemail.com [mailto:harry.loots@googlemail.com] On
Behalf Of Harry Loots
Sent: 27 March 2013 14:59
To: Steve Faulkner
Cc: W3C WAI ig; Ian Hickson; JF
Subject: Re: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main" and
HTML5 <main> element

 

Hi again Steve

 

re:

... one principle is a thought experiment, the other is implemented and used
already, 

Which of the proposals are already implemented? I thought that "<main>" was
a proposal for 5.1?


I urge anyone who thinks Ian's idea is worthwhile to define how it would
work in practice and get implementers interested in making it real.

 

Here's how the Hixon proposal may work:

tab -> (jump to) <header> ignore, skip -> (jump to) <nav> ignore, skip ->
(jump to) <aside> ignore, skip -> (jump to) <div id="gallery"> stop, allow
user to read/view; 
next tab -> <div id="products"> stop, allow user to read/view; 
next tab -> <aside> ignore, skip -> <div id="contactUs"> stop, allow user to
read/view; 
next tab -> <footer> ignore, skip -> return to top....

Regards

Harry

 

 

On 27 March 2013 12:07, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Harry, 

 

and Ian's proposal will form a perfect fail-safe when authors do not use
role=main or <main>.

 

problem is its not a perfect fail safe I have actually looked into a
heuristic approach and like most heuristics it fails at times. From HTML
data I collected and reviewed [1] I found that exclusion was not a reliable
indicator. 

 

There is no reason why the two principles cannot co-exist


of course, bit one principle is a thought experiment, the other is
implemented and used already, I urge anyone who thinks Ian's idea is
worthwhile to define how it would work in practice and get implementers
interested in making it real.


[1] http://webdevdata.org/





with regards

--
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> 

 

On 27 March 2013 10:50, Harry Loots <harry.loots@ieee.org> wrote:

Steve

you're right arguing is senseless...

However, it's worth considering the principle Ian promotes:

That the UA ignores (the way I understand what he proposes)
<header><nav><footer><aside><etc> and lands on <main>, e.g., (my
understanding/interpretation) by using a built-in short-cut key exposed to
all users.

There is no reason why the two principles cannot co-exist, and Ian's
proposal will form a perfect fail-safe when authors do not use role=main or
<main>.

Kind regards

Harry

 

 

On 27 March 2013 11:14, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all, this discussion appears to be going nowhere

We have landmark semantics that are interoperably supported across browsers
and AT, we have evidence to suggest that users find them useful.
We have mapping of  landmarks built in to HTML structural elements (in
various stages of implementation)
We have evidence to suggest that authors understand how to implement
landmarks.


Then we have a thought experiment from hixie that says hey you don't need
those landmarks especially role=main. This idea has been brought up over and
over by Hixie (note it was rejected on his home turf at the WHATWG) and
never gained any traction, browser implementers rejected it in favour of
adding the <main> element ( a number of whom have already implemented it).

So we now have a method that works (is supported out of the box by AT) and
work is also happening to build upon it to provide a simple browser built in
skip to content feature that any user can make use of, so in time the
necessity of providing a skip link will diminish.

It would therefore seem more productive to be debating other topics.





with regards

--
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> 

 

On 27 March 2013 08:50, Léonie Watson <tink@tink.co.uk> wrote:

Ian Hickson wrote:
"In the interface I am proposing, there is no repeated questioning. The user
indicates to the software that the user wishes to skip uninteresting content
and jump to interesting content, in a single action (exactly the same kind
of action as is used to jump to a header, or to jump to a specific landmark
role). Then, the user agent skips all uninteresting content and jumps
straight to the content the user wants (the same content as would be marked
with <main> or role=main)."

>From the user's point of view I think this is right. The phrases
"interesting" and "uninteresting" are too subjective to be helpful, but
essentially a single command that moves focus to the start of the main
content area of the page is the goal.

>From an implementation point of view I think this is inefficient. It's more
reliable and less process intensive to move from A to Z, than it is to move
from A, to B, to C, to D and so on until all that remains by a process of
elimination is Z.

So if the goal is to have a single mechanism for moving directly to a given
point on the page, what's the hook the UA uses to make that possible?


Léonie.
--
Carpe diem.



-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Hickson [mailto:ian@hixie.ch]
Sent: 27 March 2013 02:11
To: JF
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main" and
HTML5 <main> element

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, JF wrote:
>
> A man arrives at the San Jose airport in Silicon Valley.
>
> "I want to go to the campus" he tells the cab driver.
>
> "The Stanford campus?", asks the cabbie.
>
> [...]

Could you explain to me how this analogy corresponds to the discussion? In
the interface I am proposing, there is no repeated questioning. The user
indicates to the software that the user wishes to skip uninteresting content
and jump to interesting content, in a single action (exactly the same kind
of action as is used to jump to a header, or to jump to a specific landmark
role). Then, the user agent skips all uninteresting content and jumps
straight to the content the user wants (the same content as would be marked
with <main> or role=main).

The user experience is _exactly_ the same as the experience possible with
explicit landmark roles. The only difference is how it is marked up.

--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'



 

 

 

 

 
Received on Wednesday, 27 March 2013 17:01:57 UTC

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