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Re: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main" and HTML5 <main> element

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:42:09 +0000
Message-ID: <CA+ri+VnVLkRzuw7O5yco8jsHY2C--8c1e6--vn+iFMgjSKk6vA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Harry Loots <harry.loots@ieee.org>
Cc: W3C WAI ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, JF <john@foliot.ca>
and for those concerned about validation [2] it's conforming in HTML5 when
used as defined in HTML 5.1[1]:

Authors must not include more than one main element in a document.
>
> Authors must not include the main element as a descendant of an article,
> aside, footer, header or nav element.
>


[1]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/grouping-content.html#the-main-element
[2] http://validator.w3.org/


with regards

--
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>


On 27 March 2013 16:10, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi harry
>
>
> >Which of the proposals are already implemented? I thought that "<main>"
> was a proposal for 5.1?
>
> the <main> element as defined in HTML 5.1 is implemented in Webkit, Chrome
> and Firefox. In the case of Chrome it is supported in the stable release as
> of version 26.
>
> So for example, when an AT that supports landmarks encounters a <main>
> element it recognizes as a main landmark it generally as with all other
> landmarks indicate the start and the end of the landmark, it will be
> included in the landmark navigation treeview, it can be navigated to using
> landmark navigation keys.
>
> as <main> already has 2 interoperable implementations it will be added to
> HTML5 before it becomes a Recommendation.
>
>
> with regards
>
> --
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>  <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>
>
> On 27 March 2013 14:58, Harry Loots <harry.loots@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi again Steve
>>
>> re:
>> ... one principle is a thought experiment, the other is implemented and
>> used already,
>>
>> Which of the proposals are already implemented? I thought that "<main>"
>> was a proposal for 5.1?
>>
>> I urge anyone who thinks Ian's idea is worthwhile to define how it would
>> work in practice and get implementers interested in making it real.
>>
>> Here's how the Hixon proposal may work:
>>
>> tab -> (jump to) <header> ignore, skip -> (jump to) <nav> ignore, skip ->
>> (jump to) <aside> ignore, skip -> (jump to) <div id="gallery"> stop, allow
>> user to read/view;
>> next tab -> <div id="products"> stop, allow user to read/view;
>> next tab -> <aside> ignore, skip -> <div id="contactUs"> stop, allow user
>> to read/view;
>> next tab -> <footer> ignore, skip -> return to top....
>>
>> Regards
>> Harry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27 March 2013 12:07, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Harry,
>>>
>>> and Ian's proposal will form a perfect fail-safe when authors do not use
>>>> role=main or <main>.
>>>>
>>>
>>> problem is its not a perfect fail safe I have actually looked into a
>>> heuristic approach and like most heuristics it fails at times. From HTML
>>> data I collected and reviewed [1] I found that exclusion was not a reliable
>>> indicator.
>>>
>>> There is no reason why the two principles cannot co-exist
>>>>
>>>
>>> of course, bit one principle is a thought experiment, the other is
>>> implemented and used already, I urge anyone who thinks Ian's idea is
>>> worthwhile to define how it would work in practice and get implementers
>>> interested in making it real.
>>>
>>> [1] http://webdevdata.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> with regards
>>>
>>> --
>>> SteveF
>>> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>>>  <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 27 March 2013 10:50, Harry Loots <harry.loots@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>> you're right arguing is senseless...
>>>>
>>>> However, it's worth considering the principle Ian promotes:
>>>> That the UA ignores (the way I understand what he proposes)
>>>> <header><nav><footer><aside><etc> and lands on <main>, e.g., (my
>>>> understanding/interpretation) by using a built-in short-cut key exposed to
>>>> all users.
>>>>
>>>> There is no reason why the two principles cannot co-exist, and Ian's
>>>> proposal will form a perfect fail-safe when authors do not use role=main or
>>>> <main>.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>> Harry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 27 March 2013 11:14, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all, this discussion appears to be going nowhere
>>>>>
>>>>> We have landmark semantics that are interoperably supported across
>>>>> browsers and AT, we have evidence to suggest that users find them useful.
>>>>> We have mapping of  landmarks built in to HTML structural elements (in
>>>>> various stages of implementation)
>>>>> We have evidence to suggest that authors understand how to implement
>>>>> landmarks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then we have a thought experiment from hixie that says hey you don't
>>>>> need those landmarks especially role=main. This idea has been brought up
>>>>> over and over by Hixie (note it was rejected on his home turf at the
>>>>> WHATWG) and never gained any traction, browser implementers rejected it in
>>>>> favour of adding the <main> element ( a number of whom have already
>>>>> implemented it).
>>>>>
>>>>> So we now have a method that works (is supported out of the box by AT)
>>>>> and work is also happening to build upon it to provide a simple browser
>>>>> built in skip to content feature that any user can make use of, so in time
>>>>> the necessity of providing a skip link will diminish.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would therefore seem more productive to be debating other topics.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> with regards
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> SteveF
>>>>> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>>>>>  <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 27 March 2013 08:50, Léonie Watson <tink@tink.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ian Hickson wrote:
>>>>>> "In the interface I am proposing, there is no repeated questioning.
>>>>>> The user indicates to the software that the user wishes to skip
>>>>>> uninteresting content and jump to interesting content, in a single action
>>>>>> (exactly the same kind of action as is used to jump to a header, or to jump
>>>>>> to a specific landmark role). Then, the user agent skips all uninteresting
>>>>>> content and jumps straight to the content the user wants (the same content
>>>>>> as would be marked with <main> or role=main)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >From the user's point of view I think this is right. The phrases
>>>>>> "interesting" and "uninteresting" are too subjective to be helpful, but
>>>>>> essentially a single command that moves focus to the start of the main
>>>>>> content area of the page is the goal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >From an implementation point of view I think this is inefficient.
>>>>>> It's more reliable and less process intensive to move from A to Z, than it
>>>>>> is to move from A, to B, to C, to D and so on until all that remains by a
>>>>>> process of elimination is Z.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So if the goal is to have a single mechanism for moving directly to a
>>>>>> given point on the page, what's the hook the UA uses to make that possible?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Léonie.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Carpe diem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Ian Hickson [mailto:ian@hixie.ch]
>>>>>> Sent: 27 March 2013 02:11
>>>>>> To: JF
>>>>>> Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main"
>>>>>> and HTML5 <main> element
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, JF wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > A man arrives at the San Jose airport in Silicon Valley.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > "I want to go to the campus" he tells the cab driver.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > "The Stanford campus?", asks the cabbie.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you explain to me how this analogy corresponds to the
>>>>>> discussion? In the interface I am proposing, there is no repeated
>>>>>> questioning. The user indicates to the software that the user wishes to
>>>>>> skip uninteresting content and jump to interesting content, in a single
>>>>>> action (exactly the same kind of action as is used to jump to a header, or
>>>>>> to jump to a specific landmark role). Then, the user agent skips all
>>>>>> uninteresting content and jumps straight to the content the user wants (the
>>>>>> same content as would be marked with <main> or role=main).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The user experience is _exactly_ the same as the experience possible
>>>>>> with explicit landmark roles. The only difference is how it is marked up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.
>>>>>>  fL
>>>>>> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\
>>>>>>  ;`._ ,.
>>>>>> Things that are impossible just take longer.
>>>>>> `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
Received on Wednesday, 27 March 2013 16:43:22 UTC

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