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Re: more CSS and tables

From: Vadim Plessky <lucy-ples@mtu-net.ru>
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:13:31 +0000
Message-Id: <200201071813.g07IDnH25596@post.cnt.ru>
To: "Hoehnermusikfan" <info@hoehnermusikfan.net>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
On Tuesday 08 January 2002 00:17, Hoehnermusikfan wrote:
|   Vadim, when  you set in IE  5.5 textsize to largest, in the bottom of the
|   page http://news.cnet.com is a big mess. Did you see that? Due to not
| valid HTML?

Hmm, I need to reboot to Windows (from Linux) to check that :-)
What part of the page do you refer to?

BTW: I found archive with different versions of C-Net site.
I uploaded it to this location:
http://htmltests.newmail.ru/Examples/news_com-arc-2001.zip
so everyone can check how this site was progressing during last 1.5 years.
// you need to unpack that zip file, and there are several HTML and CSS files 
inside.

In fact, I was using that site in Jan.2001 to understand what font sizes they 
were expecting with different browsers.
To be precise, topic of my research was "what is the correct _dpi_ setting 
for my display, and how differnet Operating Systems define dpi settings for 
the OS and Browsers?"

If you are interested in this subject, 
I highly recommend to check out from that archive these 4 examples:
news_com_testcase_IE.html
news_com_testcase_Konqi.html
news_com_testcase_NN_Lin.html
news_com_testcase_NN_PC.html

They are basically illustrate what you get with different CSS stylesheets and 
different browsers on one web site (C-Net).
If you visited at least once http://www.microsoft.com either with Netscape/IE 
on Mac, or Netscape/Mozilla for Linux - than you already know what I am 
speaking about. :-)
 
Now I realize that during 1.5 months that I am subscribed to this list, none 
was asking "how using pixels instead of points affects site accessibility"
I am not visually impared, but have some preblems with accessing 
microsoft.com site (and several other sites produced with genius "Microsoft 
technology")
Can someone take care about me, please? :-)

What I found is that even if you use 'pt' font sizes - there is no warranty 
that your system (Windows / PC or Macintosh) has correct dpi (dots per inch) 
settings. And without correct dpi settings, there is no way how browser can 
recalculate 'pt' (or 'cm', 'mm') to number of pixels...
I have read in some book /article that both Windows/PC and Macintosh are 
broken in terms of reporting correct dpi settings. Has someone opposite info?

[ good news: recent versions of XFree86, used on Linux, can auto-detect dpi 
on many video adpaters/display combination, so we finally have at least one 
platform working ok] 
  
|
|   You make a very good point that using CSS is saving bandwidth and also
|   energy. For me also a reason to use CSS always.  (I  mentioned  that
| reason for using CSS in sitepolicy). It takes much less time to maintain it
| too and I think it gives much more freedom to create a very original site
| and change also a single page  very quickly..

Ah, thanks! :-)
If only web developers could realize this, too...
Very good point in your words is that "it takes much less time to maintain 
[when you use CSS]"
*Managers* (not ptogrammers!) should listen to that!
More you invest in CSS, faster you get feedback.  
You get [using CSS instead of Tables]:
* lower cost of ownership
* decreased payments for bandwidth (as a big commercial server consumes a lot 
of bandwidth)
* you can serve bigger number of visitors, without upgrade of existing 
equipment
* and, finally: make you site better accessible :-)

[...]
|
|   David, I reread always the code more times when I finished it, looking if
| I can remove the span tags... Span tags are most of the time a result of
| bad code? That is what I learnt.... but that is not what I can read in most

why do you think that  "Span tags are most of the time a result of bad code"?
SPAN is quite natural way to define 'inline' element.
of course you can take DIV and define some DIVs as { display: inline } but I 
wonder why you may want to do it.
In my opinion, there are 3 important "constructions" in Visual BoxRendering 
Model:
 * inline
 * block
 * inline-block
You can sacrifice LI, marker, compact, etc. without any significant 
degradation in design quality, or just substitute those elements with these 3 
ones.
Now the biggest problem: 'inline-block' is not supported by Mozilla, 
Konqueror (and supported only by MacIE5 and WinIE6)

Of course if you don't use text on web site (say, just icons) - than you 
don't need Inline element (SPAN). Otherwise, I doubt you can do something 
recognizable without SPAN.

| books... (gggggggrrrrrr)...
|
|   Greetings
|   Ineke van der Maat.

-- 

Vadim Plessky
http://kde2.newmail.ru  (English)
33 Window Decorations and 6 Widget Styles for KDE
http://kde2.newmail.ru/kde_themes.html
KDE mini-Themes
http://kde2.newmail.ru/themes/
Received on Monday, 7 January 2002 13:14:35 GMT

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