W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-ig@w3.org > April to June 2002

Re: compliance and layout tables revisited

From: Joe Clark <joeclark@joeclark.org>
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 13:36:17 -0400 (EDT)
To: WAI-IG <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.40.0205071329550.25860-100000@ns1.gould-thorpe.com>
> This is a snippet from the 1.0 Guidelines: <snippet>
> 11 Layout, positioning, layering, and alignment
> Checkpoints in this section:
>   a.. 3.3 Use style sheets to control layout and presentation. [Priority 2]

Except they break, in small or large ways, in *every single

WAI members, who never seem to use the Web the way real people do,
and whose idea of a perfect Web site seems to be Whatever Looks Just
Like Standards Documents at W3.org, merely assume the following:
"CSS standards have been published.  Therefore reality has
immediately reconfigured itself to conform to our hypothetical

>   b.. 5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linear
> ized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an alternative equiv
> alent (which may be a linearized version). [Priority 2] .
> Layout, positioning, layering, and alignment should be done through style sheet
> s (notably by using CSS floats and absolute positioning): ...

Which break *spectacularly* in many browsers. There is *always* a
float or position:absolute property you can find that will misbehave
in absolutely *any* browser, including those that are Gecko-based.

> It seems as if checkpoint 5.3 is saying you can use layout tables.

It is.

Even if it isn't, use them anyway. Claim compliance for every part
of the spec *save* for that one if you must.

> <input TYPE="Image" SRC="images/buttons/update.gif" border="0" VALUE="Update Ba
> sket" ALT="if you changed a quantity, Update Basket">
> border="0" doesn't validate for the html 4.01 transitional doctype (the most le
> nient) on the input tag yet if I take it out, a border shows up around the imag
> e in some browsers.

input {border: none}

solves the problem. Or you could use a specific class.

> That seems very extreme to get rid of an image border.

Use the bit of CSS above. It is reasonably well-supported. Even if
it isn't, well, a border is a much smaller transgression than divs
that sit on top of one another (always considered correct by WAI
even if no one on the planet can read them).


    Joe Clark              joeclark@joeclark.org
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Received on Tuesday, 7 May 2002 13:38:51 UTC

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