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Re: 10.4 Re: Checkpoints 10.4 and 10.5

From: Steven McCaffrey <SMCCAFFR@MAIL.NYSED.GOV>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:24:08 -0400
Message-Id: <sb165410.059@MAIL.NYSED.GOV>
To: <asgilman@iamdigex.net>
Cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Hello Al:

     Yes, I agree completely.  My screen reader and browser are fixed, so this is why I emphasized that I did not want to generalize.  For my versions of screen reader and browser, it appears the label in the example I gave works.  As for other screen readers I can't say.
Even for other codings of the form, I can't say.  I never know what is a safe

An examnple that doesn't work for me
is on the wired article page from a previous message
(JFW 3.31 IE 5.0)

I hear (skipping some links)
"Slash news slash image map link" then I tab and hear 
then I tab and hear
"Combo box"
then I tab and hear
"Go button"

If I hit enter on the Combo box to go into forms mode,
then I hear
"Look for combo box Wired news"
(a pull down list)

I think the "Look for" is supposed to be associated with the edit field and not the Combo box, right?
This had me confused for some time.
I'll try to find an example of what works.


>>> Al Gilman <asgilman@iamdigex.net> 05/31/01 12:29PM >>>

Both good news and bad news are informative.  It would help to have
examples of
what works and also of what doesn't work.  You and David seem to believe that
we still need explanatory text, or at least some text, in the edit boxes for
best practice at the moment.  This is an "until user agents" provision in the
WCAG.  So for objectivity and consensus, it helps to know what the actual user
agents do with actual pages.  

To sell this to web authors as the general rule of what to do, it helps to
chapter and verse documentation explaining in what situations alternatives
don't work.  Target page, OS, Browser, Screen reader with versions.  It helps.


At 11:15 AM 2001-05-31 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello Charles:
>     Good question.  I don't want to generalize, so let me just give an
example that does work.  The example in section 11.2 of the 
>HTML Techniques for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 works fine.  I
>"First name colon edit"
>then I hit tab and hear:
>"Last name colon edit"
>which is fine.
>The snipet for the first name is:
>   <LABEL for="firstname">First name: </LABEL>
>   <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">
>Note my comments above are not about grouping form controls which is the main
point of 11.2.  I am just commenting on the label element.
>>>> Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org> 05/31/01 09:50AM >>>
>If they have labels (using the label element) does this improve things?
>Charles McCN
>On Thu, 31 May 2001, Steven McCaffrey wrote:
>  Hi Charles:
>       I'm using JFW 3.31.  I will just hear "edit".
>  Steve
>  >>> Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org> 05/31/01 08:43AM >>>
>  Thanks Steven, Dave.
>  Can you please explain what software you're using, and what happens?
>  cheers
>  Chaals
>  On Thu, 31 May 2001, Steven McCaffrey wrote:
>    Hello:
>         I agree with David in that it is still an issue.  The consequence is
>    that I will hear only "Edit" but will not know what type of
information is
>    Steve McCaffrey
>    Information Technology Services
>    NYSED
>    >>> "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@home.com> 05/31/01 07:49AM >>>
>    it is still an issue although many have solved it.  even though you have
>    to rub the text out, it is best to have something telling you where to
>    write because some renderings still confuse labels with edit boxes.
>    ----- Original Message -----
>  ...
>    the rationale for this one was that there were assistive technology and
>    browser combinations that would skip over empty form controls. I am not
>    certain, but I believe that this is no longer an issue. I will ask the
>    Web Content Accessibility Guidelines group to address this question as
>    fast as possible.
>Charles McCathieNevile   
<http://www.w3.org/People/Charles>http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61
409 134 136
>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    
<http://www.w3.org/WAI>http://www.w3.org/WAI    fax: +1 617 258 5999
>Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
>(or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,
Received on Thursday, 31 May 2001 14:27:22 UTC

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