W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > April to June 2005

RE: GL 3.2 proposal and summary

From: John M Slatin <john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu>
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:59:31 -0500
Message-ID: <6EED8F7006A883459D4818686BCE3B3B0124856F@MAIL01.austin.utexas.edu>
To: "Li, Alex" <alex.li@sap.com>, <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>

Hi, Alex. Thanks for the response.

You wrote:
<blockquote>
>Issue 1509 proposes rewording GL 3.2 to "Ensure that users can predict
the placement and behavior of content."  This is not consistent with the
proposed removal of "extreme change in context".  Propose to keep open
until resolution is made.
</blockquote>

I'm perfectly willing to leave this issue (1509) open, but for a
somewhat different reason.
I think it's important that the wording of the guideline matches up with
the wording of the success criteria.  However, I don't think that the SC
should *drive* the guideline-- I think it's the other way around.  The
guideline expreses an intent (e.g., to ensure consistency and
predictability, to ensure that there are text alternatives for non-text
content, etc.).  The SC provide testable ways to determine whether the
content satisfies that intent.

The current wording is:
<blockquote>
Guideline 3.2 Organize content consistently from "page to page" and make
interactive components behave in predictable ways.
</blockquote>

I interpreted this as expressing the Working Group's intention to
require consistent layout and predictable behavior. 


I think (I hope!) that the proposed wording expresses the same
intention, but generalizes it so that it applies to content that isn't
presented visually and doesn't present as "pages"; I hope the proposed
wording is a bit more readable as well.

<proposed>
Ensure that users can predict
the placement and behavior of content.
</proposed>

Whatever the group's intent may be (and I hope it's expressed by the
proposed wording!), then that should guide our decisions about the
success criteria.  Whether SC about "extreme change of context" are
consistent with the intent expressed in the guideline depends in part on
what we mean by "extreme."

Somewhere-- I think perhaps in my comments on the survey form for 3.2--
I suggested a way of thinking about this.  I think of an "extreme"
change of context as something that takes me someplace I didn't know I
would go and that I wouldn't have chosen to go to if I'd been offered
the choice.

John





"Good design is accessible design." 
John Slatin, Ph.D.
Director, Accessibility Institute
University of Texas at Austin
FAC 248C
1 University Station G9600
Austin, TX 78712
ph 512-495-4288, f 512-495-4524
email jslatin@mail.utexas.edu
web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility/


 



-----Original Message-----
From: Li, Alex [mailto:alex.li@sap.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:54 am
To: John M Slatin; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: RE: GL 3.2 proposal and summary


Hi John,

I have considered the proposal.  A short conclusion is stated in the
issue summary.  Below is the clip.  Attached is the full summary.  In
short, I think this will change a bit after we settle the pending debate
about "extreme change in context".  So, I rather handle the change after
the dust is settle.

>Issue 1509 proposes rewording GL 3.2 to "Ensure that users can predict
the placement and behavior of content."  This is not consistent with the
proposed removal of "extreme change in context".  Propose to keep open
until resolution is made.

All best,
Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:10 PM
To: Li, Alex; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: RE: GL 3.2 proposal and summary


Thanks, Alex. I've put my comments about the SC into the survey form.

But here's something further:

When Mike Michael, Gregg and I reviewed the GL and SC to assess the
impact of not setting baseline within the GL document, we proposed new
wording for GL 3.2 itself (not just the SC).  That proposal doesn't seem
to be captured here, but I'd like for us to consider it.

Here's what we came up with:
<current>
GL 3.2: Organize content consistently from "page to page" and make
interactive components behave in predictable ways </current>

<proposed>Ensure that users can predict the placement and behavior of
content.</proposed>

John




"Good design is accessible design." 
John Slatin, Ph.D.
Director, Accessibility Institute
University of Texas at Austin
FAC 248C
1 University Station G9600
Austin, TX 78712
ph 512-495-4288, f 512-495-4524
email jslatin@mail.utexas.edu
web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility/


 



-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of Li, Alex
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:20 am
To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: GL 3.2 proposal and summary


Hi all,
 
Please see attached for html version of GL 3.2 summary.
***************************************************

High Level Summary of WCAG 2.0 GL 3.2

GL 3.2, in my opinion, consists of two primary issues - Extreme change
of context and "Page to Page" consistency. These are two separate
issues. To that end, I will discuss them separately.

All issues surrounding extreme change of context has to do with pop-up
windows and, to a much smaller degree, content updates. The examples
named a couple of caption identification for speaker change in audio
presentation, but those should belong to GL 1.3 and UA. None of the open
issues has anything to do with captioning. Of the 48 open issues, 21 are
related to extreme change of context. Almost all of them are about
pop-up windows. Therefore, I propose eliminating the term "extreme
change of context" and directly address the pop-up windows issues. This
will remove the ambiguity. 

Next, many of the issues relating to "extreme change of context" would
be solved if user agents can inform users about the pop-up windows. This
is a more efficient method to address the problem. We need to pass on to
UAAG. In particular, UAAG 1.0 GL 10.5 should have informed the users of
pop-up windows that are expected. It may not solve the unexpected pop-up
windows such as pop-up advertising. In all cases, all pop-up windows can
be programmatically determined anyway. I know of no way for pop-up
windows to fail level 1. Additionally, the pop-up windows can now be
blocked by all new browsers. In conclusion, I propose to remove the SC
related to "extreme change of context".  

There is a left-over issue of content update that I would post to the
group.  Let's say we have a web page for NBA (professional basketball)
statistics.  To reach the statistics of an individual team, the user
pick from a drop down list of teams.  The content is updated based on
the selection.  Is it necessary to have a separate submission button to
warn of content change before the content update should occur?  Should
tabbing out of the selection list be enough?  Another example can be
real time content such as weather, stock quote, auction price, and time
sensitive game, in which content is updated constantly.  All of these
content updates are expected can be programmatically determined.  If we
leave anything from "extreme change of context", this may be it.  But I
think this is also an user agent issue.  But I would like to hear from
everybody.

As for the "Page to Page" consistency open issues, they are mostly
concerning wording and menu bars that expand and contract. I propose to
use "delivery unit" as replacement to "page" and that our SC accounts
for expanding and contracting menu bar. This is my high level summary.
Please see below for detail. 


Issue Resolution


Issue 315 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=315>  ask
for warning before form submission or screen change.  Form submission is
addressed by GL3.5 L2 SC3.  Screen change is pending discussion as
outlined above.  Propose to leave open until we reach an agreement on
content update.

Issue 443 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=443>
asks for removal of ambiguous terms such as "consistent" and
"predictable".  This can be addressed by the proposed change in GL.
Propose to leave open until we reach an agreement on content update.

Issue 514 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=514>
asks for better examples related to pop-up windows.  Propose to close
with explanation.

Issue 704 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=704>
asks for additional text in Who Benefits from Guideline 3.2 for pop-up
windows control.  Propose to close with explanation.

Issue 707 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=707>
proposes text for Example 3, frames that do not track history making the
back button behave unexpectedly.  This is an user agent issue.  Propose
to close with explanation.

Issue 742 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=742>
asks for not allowing pop-up windows.  This is an user agent issue.
Propose to close with explanation.

Issue 767 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=767>
references the original wording from Mar 11, 2004 TR draft.  Propose to
close.

Issue 815 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=815>
references the definition example for extreme change of context. Propose
to close, pending removal of extreme change of context from the
guideline.

Issue 816 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=816>
asks for consideration of expanding sub-menu bar.  Propose to leave open
until we find proper language to accommodate sub-menu and put the issue
on editorial note until the language is found.

Issue 817 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=817>
says that extreme change of context is an user agent issue.  Propose to
close, pending removal of extreme change of context from the guideline.

Issue 818 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=818>
says that the speaker change captioning example for extreme change of
context is not programmatically identifiable.  Propose to close with
explanation that speaker identification should be part of guideline 1.3
and that audio form user agents should contain structural information
including speaker identification.

Issue 819 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=819>
proposes wording change for frame history example in extreme change of
context.  Propose to close, pending removal of extreme change of context
from the guideline.

Issue 844 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=844>
asks for avoidance of pop-up windows.  Propose to close, pending removal
of extreme change of context from the guideline.

Issue 860 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=860>
points out that level 3 SC 3 (customizing menu bar) is inconsistent with
level 3 SC 2 (menu bar item be at same location).  This is correct with
current wording.  Propose to keep open until resolution.

Issue 862 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=862>
proposes to move level 3 SC 3 to level 2 and question testability of the
SC.  Propose to keep open until resolution.

Issue 931 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=931>
questions the definition of extreme change of context.  Propose to
close, pending removal of extreme change of context from the guideline.

Issue 961 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=961>
suggests to replace "page" with "unit".  Propose to close, pending
acceptance of proposed change.

Issue 962 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=962>
questions the possibility of sub-menu.  Propose to leave open until we
find proper language to accommodate sub-menu and put the issue on
editorial note until the language is found.

Issue 963 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=963>
requests an example for level 3 SC3.  Propose to add an example for
content customization or close the issue with explanation.

Issue 1049 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1049>
suggests wording alternative to "page", suggests adding "keyboard action
for back button" (Alt + left arrow) in extreme change of context
explanation, and suggests repeated content be skippable.  Propose to
close with explanation and reference GL 2.4.

Issue 1095 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1095>
references GL 2.4.  Propose to redirect.

Issue 1096 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1096>
references GL 2.4.  Propose to redirect.

Issue 1172 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1172>
points out "extreme change of context" is ambiguous.  Propose to close,
pending removal of extreme change of context from the guideline.

Issue 1218 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1218>
suggests to replace "page" with "view.  Propose to close, pending
acceptance of proposed change.

Issue 1219 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1219>
references editorial note that the criterion is html specific, but that
it is not html specific.  Propose to close, pending removal of extreme
change of context from the guideline.

Issue 1224 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1224>
references action items from Oct 2004 face to face open issues.  Propose
to close pending review of unfinished action items.

Issue 1338 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1338>
references an error in "Who Benefit..." regarding "extreme change of
context".  Propose to close, pending removal of extreme change of
context from the guideline.

Issue 1408 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1408>
questions if "page to page navigational consistency extends into content
component (author unit). This should be explained.  If you have a web
site with a good navigational menu with hundreds of delivery units and
two of the pages have the same components (submit button, for example).
We cannot possibly ask those two pages to place the components at the
same location.  We have to find a way to make sure that we explain in
the SC that we are only talking about navigational menu item.  Propose
to keep open until proper resolution and post explanation on editorial
note in the meantime.

Issue 1409 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1409>
references destination link be identifiable through words.  Propose to
close, pending removal of extreme change of context from the guideline.

Issue 1410 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1410>
needs more explanation.  Propose to reply and request clarification.

Issue 1411 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1411>
points out same image may have slightly different meaning depending on
context.  For example, a check mark may signify "budget approved" in a
budget page; it may then signify "task completed" in a project
management page.  This is a deficiency in level 2 SC 4 and level 3 SC1.
Propose to close per acceptance of issue 1514
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1514>  and 1517
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1517> .

Issue 1412 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1412>
suggests that home page of most web pages may not have consistent layout
with identical navigational menu.  Since only repeated navigational menu
items apply, home pages with difference menu should not be restricted.
Propose to close with explanation.

Issue 1413 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1413>
needs more explanation.  Propose to reply and request clarification.

Issue 1436 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1436>
suggests that all web pages should look alike to help the elderly
understand the web.  This is outside of the possibility of WCAG. Propose
to reject with explanation.

Issue 1442 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1442>
references per editorial note as to whether level 2 SC 6 should be
specific.  Propose to close, pending removal of extreme change of
context from the guideline.

Issue 1461 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1461>
suggests genre of content (news vs. entertainment vs. junk, etc) should
be visually recognizable.  This is outside of the possibility of WCAG.
Propose to reject with explanation.

Issue 1509 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1509>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 to "Ensure that users can predict the
placement and behavior of content."  This is not consistent with the
proposed removal of "extreme change in context".  Propose to keep open
until resolution is made.

Issue 1510 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1510>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 level 1 SC 1 to "A mechanism is available to
give automatic notice of any extreme change of context.".  Propose to
reject, pending removal of extreme change of context from the guideline.

Issue 1511 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1511>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 level 2 SC 1 to "Components that are repeated
on multiple delivered units within a resource or a collection of
delivered units occur in the same sequence each time they are repeated,
for at least one presentation format."  Propose to accept suggested
wording with editorial note to accommodate expanding sub-menu.

Issue 1512 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1512>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 level 2 SC 2 to "Any content that receives
focus does so without causing automatic activation.".  Propose to accept
suggested wording.

Issue 1513 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1513>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 level 2 SC 3 to "Changing the setting of any
input field does not automatically cause an extreme change in context.".
Propose to keep issue open until resolution is made per removal of
extreme change of context and content update discussion per high level
summary.

Issue 1514 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1514>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 level 2 SC 4 to "Interactive content that
appears in multiple delivered units is associated with similar
functionality wherever it appears.".  Propose to accept suggested
wording.

Issue 1515 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1515>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 level 2 SC 5 to "Interactive content which
would cause change of context is indicated to users.".  Propose to
reject, pending removal of extreme change of context from the guideline.

Issue 1516 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1516>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 level 2 SC 6 to "Text that describes the
destination of each link is available.".  Propose to reject, pending
removal of extreme change of context from the guideline.

Issue 1517 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1517>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 level 3 SC 1 to "Text alternatives for
non-text content that appears on multiple delivery units are
consistent.".  Propose to accept suggested wording.

Issue 1518 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1518>
proposes rewording GL 3.2 level 3 SC 2 and SC3 from using "page" to
"delivery unit".  Propose to accept suggested wording with editorial
note to accommodate expanding sub-menu and inconsistency between SC2 and
SC3 per Issue 860
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=860> .

Issue 1522 <http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1522>
suggests GL should address font size control.  Propose to close with
explanation.


Proposed Change


<sc>L1 SC1</sc>

<proposed>No Level 1 Success Criterion</proposed>

<current>Any extreme change of context
<http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#extreme-changedef>  is implemented in a
manner that can be programmatically identified.</current>

<rationale>Please see High Level Summary at the top of this
document.</rationale>

<sc>L2 SC1</sc>

<proposed>Components that are repeated on multiple delivered units
within a resource or a collection of delivered units occur in the same
sequence each time they are repeated, for at least one presentation
format.</proposed>

<current>Components that are repeated on multiple "pages" within a
resource or a section of a resource occur in the same sequence each time
they are repeated, for at least one presentation format.</current>

<rationale>Please see issue 1511
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1511> .  We need to
resolve or add editorial note for expanding sub-menu.</rationale>

<sc>L2 SC2</sc>

<proposed>Any content that receives focus does so without causing
automatic activation.</proposed>

<current>All user interface components should be able to receive focus
without causing activation.</current>

<rationale>Please see issue 1512
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1512> .</rationale>

<sc>L2 SC4</sc>

<proposed>Interactive content that appears in multiple delivered units
is associated with similar functionality wherever it appears.</proposed>

<current>Interactive elements that appear on multiple "pages," including
graphical elements, are associated with the same functionality wherever
they appear.</current>

<rationale>Please see issue 1514
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1514> .</rationale>

<sc>L2 SC5</sc>

<proposed>No number 5 success criterion</proposed>

<current>Explicit notice is given in advance of any extreme change of
context <http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#extreme-changedef> . </current>

<rationale>Please see High Level Summary at the top of this
document.</rationale>

<sc>L2 SC6</sc>

<proposed>No number 6 success criterion</proposed>

<current>The destination of each link
<http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#linkdef>  is identified through words or
phrases that either occur in the link or can be programmatically
determined. </current>

<rationale>This is already covered by UAAG.</rationale>

<sc>L3 SC1</sc>

<proposed>Text alternatives for non-text content that appears on
multiple delivery units are consistent.</proposed>

<current>Graphical components that appear on multiple pages, including
graphical links, are associated with the same text equivalents wherever
they appear. </current>

<rationale>Please see issue 1517
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1517> .<rationale>

<sc>L3 SC2</sc>

<proposed>Components that appear visually on multiple delivered units,
such as navigation bars, search forms, and sections within the main
content, are displayed in the same location relative to other content on
every page or screen where they appear.</proposed>

<current>Components that appear visually on multiple pages, such as
navigation bars, search forms, and sections within the main content, are
displayed in the same location relative to other content on every page
or screen where they appear.</current>

<rationale>Please see 1518
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1518> .  Also, add
editorial note to accommodate expanding sub-menu and inconsistency
between SC2 and SC3 per Issue 860
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=860> .</rationale>

<sc>L3 SC3</sc>

<proposed>When components such as navigation menus and search forms
appear on multiple delivered units, users can choose to have those
elements presented in a different visual position or
reading-order.</proposed>

<current>When components such as navigation menus and search forms
appear on multiple pages, users can choose to have those elements
presented in a different visual position or reading-order. </current>

<rationale>Please see 1518
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1518> .  Also, add
editorial note to accommodate expanding sub-menu and inconsistency
between SC2 and SC3 per Issue 860
<http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=860> .</rationale>

<sc>L3 SC4</sc>

<proposed>No number 4 success criterion</proposed>

<current>There are no extreme changes of context
<http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#extreme-changedef> . </current>

<rationale>Please see High Level Summary at the top of this
document.</rationale>

All best,
Alex Li 
Accessibility Program Manager
SAP Labs, Inc.
 
Ronald Reagan Building
1300 Pennsylvania Ave, NW, Suite 600
Washington, DC 20004
 
T (202) 312-3801
F (202) 312-3600
M (202) 492-4592 
mailto: alex.li@sap.com
http://www.sap.com <http://www.sap.com/> 
THE BEST RUN BUSINESSES RUN SAP 

This e-mail is confidential and may contain privileged information. If
you are not the addressee it may be unlawful for you to read, copy,
distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this e-mail. If
you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately.
Received on Wednesday, 1 June 2005 13:59:44 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Wednesday, 5 February 2014 23:39:37 UTC