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Re: Shorter and more URGENT

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:39:32 -0400 (EDT)
To: Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>
cc: w3c-wai-eo@w3.org, ij@w3.org, dd@w3.org, chisholm@trace.wisc.edu, po@trace.wisc.edu
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9907161830330.11674-100000@tux.w3.org>
I guess I forgot to note:

no, I don't like "use noframes if complex". It is extra verbiage, to qualify
a need, based on the fact that there are emergency strategies that can get
around it. That seems like a bad approach to me. It is also not the approach
taken in the rest of the card

Charles McCN

On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:

  I think that what the guidelines say about noframes (i.e. that they are P2,
  in the case where you are using frames) is correct. I think that noframes is
  an important part of using frames accessibly, and is something taht is still
  very rarely done properly, and should therefore be on the card. I have no
  problem with what is already there, excpet I think the lack of mentioning
  noframes is a serious ommission in the context of the card (especially at the
  price of 11 letters, including 8 bold ones, plus a space.
  
  I don't think that either Daniel or I are about to change our repsective
  minds on the importance of this (we haven't in the last 6 or 8 months) and I
  don't think it is important enough to hold up printing of the card. I do
  think it is important enough to keep asking for it, and I will. (The luxury
  of not being chair). In the absence of that, I think the proposals and the
  current text are all good enough. If it fits, I think meaningful is a useful
  thing to say about labelling.
  
  I have read all the comments posted on this issue to date. I agree with Ian
  that providing longdesc and providing noframes require different types of
  thinking. I disagree (tentatively) with the idea that one or the other is
  more difficult to do well.
  
  Charles McCN
  
  On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Judy Brewer wrote:
  
    Charles, 
    
    It hasn't gone to the printers yet, partly because of this. Please see my
    most recent comment, with status; and also Ian and Daniel's comments
    regarding this interpretation of the use of NOFRAMES. If the argument is
    that you think this is the way the guidelines _should_ read, and therefore
    we should put it on the card, then we're going beyond the bounds of what we
    should do with the Quick Tips. That's how I read this:
    
    CMN: >Basically I think noframes should be used to provide good quality
    access to
    >framesets in non-serial media.
    
    If I'm on target there, then our hope for consensus is either with an
    abbreviated conditional, if people agree to my recent proposal: 
    
    JB PROPOSAL #2: "Frames: Use _title_ or _name_, and NOFRAMES if complex."
    
    ...or to default to the original text on the card, given that time
    constraints are requiring us to be conservative on changes-- e.g. no change
    in the material except where there is strong consensus. Can you
    specifically comment on whether you thought there was something _incorrect_
    with the use of "label" in the phrase on the card "Frames: Label with the
    _title_ or _name_ attribute" or was your concern w/ labeling them w/ title
    or name...?
    
    CMN: >simply labelling them is a very bad
    >practice, which excludes accessibility in non-frames capable browsers 
    
    ...or at least confirm whether the "good enough" in your last message was
    regarding JB PROPOSAL #2 or the original text on the card.
    
    And other folks reading this this weekend still need to comment on JB
    PROPOSAL #2, please... 
    
    Thanks,
    
    - Judy
    
    At 05:40 PM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
    >For waht it's worth (I assume that this lot have gone to the printer now) I
    >would prefer to have 
    >
    >8. Frames: Title frames meaningfully and use _noframes_.
    >
    >Basically I think noframes should be used to provide good quality access to
    >framesets in non-serial media.
    >
    >I would also suggest
    >
    >10. Validate: Use avaluation tools, guidelines, checklist http:// etc
    >
    >However I am definitiel of the opinion that the value of the quicktips card
    >is more in spreading the message than getting it perfectly accurate - I think
    >there is no chance of doing the latter, but that it is an extremely useful
    >reminder anyway.
    >
    >Charles McCN
    >
    >On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Judy Brewer wrote:
    >
    >  VOTES PLEASE!
    >  
    >  Two items to look at new solutions on; see compiled threads on my last
    >  e-mail for background.
    >  
    >  8. Frames. Title frames, and provide _NOFRAMES_ equivalent.
    >  
    >  10. Check your work. Use evaluation tools, guidelines and checklist
    >  www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT
    >  
    >  - Judy
    >  
    >  ----------
    >  Judy Brewer    jbrewer@w3.org    +1.617.258.9741    http://www.w3.org/WAI
    >  Director, Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) International Program Office
    >  World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
    >  MIT/LCS Room NE43-355, 545 Technology Square, Cambridge, MA,  02139,  USA
    >  
    >
    >--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
    >phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
    >W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
    >MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
    >
    ----------
    Judy Brewer    jbrewer@w3.org    +1.617.258.9741    http://www.w3.org/WAI
    Director, Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) International Program Office
    World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
    MIT/LCS Room NE43-355, 545 Technology Square, Cambridge, MA,  02139,  USA
    
  
  --Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
  phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
  W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
  MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
  
  

--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
Received on Friday, 16 July 1999 18:39:35 GMT

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