W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-rdfcore-wg@w3.org > December 2001

Minutes RDFCore WG Telecon 2001-12-07

From: Eric Miller <em@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:50:04 -0500
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213104727.057c5c78@localhost>
To: w3c-rdfcore-wg@w3.org
Minutes - RDF Core WG - Telecon 07 December 2001
================================================

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Dec/0020.html

Summary:
DECISION 2001-12-07#0 : remove aboutEach from syntax (see ACTION 2001-12-07#6)

Actions:
ACTION 2001-12-07#1 : Brian to add link to rdf primer rough working
draft to RDF Core home page
ACTION 2001-12-07#2 : jjc, JosD, and Patrick willing to reiview syntax
specifcation when it comes out next week
ACTION 2001-12-07#3 : JosD, jjc to review Agenda item 14: Review test
cases on para 196
http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/redland/rdfcore/rdfms-para196
ACTION 2001-12-07#4 : AaronSw to bring these reponses back from the
RDFIG to the RDF Core WG re
http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfms-difference-between-ID-and-about
ACTION 2001-12-07#5 : BWM to review test cases re
http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfms-difference-between-ID-and-about
ACTION 2001-12-07#6 : Dajobe to flag aboutEach removal in Syntax
document and bring this to the attention of the RDFIG
ACTION 2001-12-07#7 : Em to put removal of aboutEach to CG to ask
whether this is in charter or not
ACTION 2001-12-07#8 Sergey to produce new data type document by next
Wednesday for review by next Friday's teleconference

1: Allocate scribe
    Eric Miller

2: Roll Call

Present
-------
   Brian McBride
   Eric Miller
   Dave Beckett
   Ron Daniel
   Jos De Roo
   Frank Manola
   Stephen Petschulat
   Patrick Stickler
   Aaron Swartz
   Pat Hayes
   Sergey Melnik
   Mike Dean

Absent
------
   Frank Boumphrey
   Bill dehOra
   Rael Dornfest
   Yoshiyuki Kitahara
   Michael Kopchenov
   Kwon, Hyung-Jin
   Ora Lassila
   Satoshi Nakamura
   Pierre Richard
   R.V. Guha
   Jan Grant

Regrets
-------
   Dan Brickley
   Martyn Horner
   Graham Klyne
   Dan Connolly

3: Review Agenda
    Addition (dajobe): add tech plenary & f2f
    Addition (bwm): give patrick to intro himself

4: Next telecon - 10am Boston time, 2001-12-14

5: Review Minutes of 2001-11-30 with correction
   see
   - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0651.html
   - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0652.html
   done

6: Confirm Status of Completed Actions
   done

7: Holiday Schedule
   Propose 14th Dec is last telecon this year.  First of the new year
   will be 11th Jan

8: Agenda item : Status of Primer
   New rough draft availiable 
http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/rdf-primer-20011101.html
   RDF Primer teleconference with Frank, Aarron, Sean and Eric to follow

9: Status of Model Theory
   Pat contines to work on this

10: Status of Syntax WD
   Dave: draft status -- starting to get a bit long (but includes
   relax, etc.); looking for people willing to review
   ACTION 2001-12-07#2 : jjc, JosD, and Patrick willing to reiview
   syntax specifcation when it comes out next week

11: CVS Access to W3C
   done

12: Status of action 2001-11-16#7
   ACTION 2001-11-16#7 Pat Hayes following email discussion of
   rdfms-boolean-valued-properties, prepare new statement of this
   resolution to bring back for approval.

13: Issue: rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty
   Test case approved (reviewed by DanC, Pat and Jos)

14: Review test cases on para 196
   ACTION 2001-12-07#3 : JosD, jjc to review test cases on para 196
   http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/redland/rdfcore/rdfms-para196

15: Issue: #rdfms-difference-between-ID-and-about
   ACTION 2001-12-07#4 : AaronSw to bring these reponses back from the
   RDFIG to the RDF Core WG re
   http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfms-difference-between-ID-and-about

16: Issue rdfms-aboutEach
    DECISION: remove aboutEach (the crowd rejoices)
    ACTION 2001-12-07#6 : Dajobe to flag aboutEach removal in Syntax
    document and bring this to the attention of the RDFIG
    ACTION 2001-12-07#7 : Em to put removal of aboutEach to CG to ask
    whether this is in charter or not

17: Datatypes
   See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0598.html
   See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Dec/0003.html
   next steps: sergey and ghram will meet... sergey will produce new
   document by next Wednesday for review by next Friday's
   teleconference
   ACTION 2001-12-07#8 Sergey to produce new data type document by next
   Wednesday for review by next Friday's teleconference

18: Issue: rdfms-assertion
   did not get to

19: Semantics of Reification - what progress
   did not get to

Additional Agenda Items:

a: Introduction of Patrick Stickler
   Workring on content management and distribution for Nokia. Focus on
   internal infrustructure managment and delivery of large
   documentation set.. looking at RDF for providing the means for
   supporting this. Aacademic background includes computational
   linguisit and CS. Research interests; NLP to classification,
   datamining, inference semenatic, standardizes ontologies,
   meta-ontologies

b: F2F, Technical plenay
   Feb 25, 26 in Cannes, France

Meeting Adjourned (Datatype dsicussions continued and are included at
the end of the Raw IRC log)

Raw IRC log

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec  7 09:39:05 2001
09:39:05 -->	em (~em@dhcp065-024-049-132.columbus.rr.com) has joined #rdfcore
09:39:05 ---	Topic for #rdfcore is RDF Core WG Meeting 15:00-16:00 UTC 
Friday - Agenda: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Dec/0020.html
09:39:05 ---	Topic for #rdfcore set by dajobe at Fri Dec  7 09:12:16
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joined #rdfcore
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10:01:11 <em>	+em
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10:04:29 <dajobe_1>	hmm
10:05:25 <jjc>	Jeremy notes that AaronSw is a robot!
10:05:40 *	em happy to scribe
10:05:48 ---	You are now known as em-scribe
10:05:54 <em-scribe>	roll call...
10:06:09 <em-scribe>	regrets: danbru
10:06:12 <em-scribe>	em-scribe: here
10:06:17 -->	JosD (nobody@un.impressive.net) has joined #rdfcore
10:06:18 <em-scribe>	dajobe,
10:06:23 <em-scribe>	frank absebnt
10:06:25 <em-scribe>	rond absent
10:06:30 <em-scribe>	billd ab
10:06:31 <--	JosD has quit (Remote closed the connection)
10:06:34 <em-scribe>	rael ab
10:06:39 <em-scribe>	martin here
10:06:42 <em-scribe>	josh here
10:06:46 <em-scribe>	yosi ab
10:06:49 <em-scribe>	ghram regret
10:06:52 <em-scribe>	micheal ab
10:06:58 <em-scribe>	qwan, ora, ab
10:07:00 <em-scribe>	frank he
10:07:06 <em-scribe>	natashi ab
10:07:09 <em-scribe>	steve ab
10:07:10 -->	DanC (~connolly@adsl-208-190-203-68.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net) has 
joined #rdfcore
10:07:14 <em-scribe>	piere ab
10:07:18 <em-scribe>	patrick s he
10:07:20 <em-scribe>	aarron he
10:07:25 <em-scribe>	miked ab
10:07:26 -->	JosD (nobody@un.impressive.net) has joined #rdfcore
10:07:28 <em-scribe>	guha ab
10:07:30 <em-scribe>	pat he
10:07:35 <em-scribe>	sergey (not yet)
10:08:05 *	DanC scrambles to see how many fires need my attention just now; 
tentative regrets...
10:08:08 <em-scribe>	next telecon: next week
10:08:08 <bwm>	-open
10:08:10 <Jema>	RDFCore WG Telecon 2001-12-07 is now open
10:08:10 <Jema>	The agenda can be found at 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Dec/0020.html
10:08:10 <Jema>	Agenda item 1: Allocate scribe
10:08:11 <em-scribe>	review agenda
10:08:23 <bwm>	-aob f2f
10:08:28 <em-scribe>	dajobe: add tech plenary & f2f
10:08:42 <em-scribe>	bwm: give patrick to intro himself
10:08:52 <bwm>	-agenda 5
10:08:53 <Jema>	Agenda item 5: Review Minutes of 2001-11-30 with correction
10:08:53 <Jema>	See: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0651.html
10:08:53 <Jema>	See: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0652.html
10:08:58 <em-scribe>	AGENDA REQUEST dajobe: add tech plenary & f2f
10:09:06 <em-scribe>	AGENDA REQUEST bwm: give patrick to intro himself
10:09:09 <bwm>	-agenda next
10:09:11 <Jema>	Agenda item 6: Confirm Status of Completed Actions
10:09:14 <em-scribe>	no comments on minutes... minutes approved
10:09:32 <bwm>	-next
10:09:32 <Jema>	command not recognised
10:09:36 <em-scribe>	approved actions
10:09:40 <bwm>	-agenda next
10:09:41 <Jema>	Agenda item 7: Holiday Schedule
10:09:41 <Jema>	See: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Dec/0017.html
10:09:59 <em-scribe>	EM action to upload test case
10:10:04 <em-scribe>	er... am i actions?
10:10:11 <dajobe_1>	not yet, item 14
10:10:12 <em-scribe>	MikeD here
10:10:16 <em-scribe>	ok dajobe
10:10:49 <bwm>	-agenda 8
10:10:50 <Jema>	Agenda item 8: Status of Primer
10:10:50 <DanC>	re holiday schedule... does that include publication 
scheduling issues?
10:10:52 <em-scribe>	ok... status of primer
10:10:56 <em-scribe> 
http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/rdf-primer-20011101.html
10:12:00 -->	mdean_ (~mdean@hh1114013.direcpc.com) has joined #rdfcore
10:12:00 <jjc>	still needing to integrate bits
10:12:22 <jjc>	eric would like more eyes over the current draft
10:12:25 <jjc>	still very rough#
10:13:51 <em-scribe>	em-scribe, only recently been able to get back with 
Frank on this
10:14:13 <dajobe_1>	that primer seems to be using n3, not ntriples e.g 
":foo" - just a cleanup needed, no biggie
10:16:42 <em-scribe>	Action: bwm add link to rdf primer rouch working draft 
to rdf core home page
10:17:15 <em-scribe>	AaronSw, i talked with Sean about helping to review 
the primer and he seemed keen in helping
10:17:16 <--	JosD has quit (Remote closed the connection)
10:17:19 -->	JosD (nobody@un.impressive.net) has joined #rdfcore
10:17:20 <em-scribe>	AaronSw, i would be as wekk
10:17:23 <em-scribe>	err... well
10:17:49 <jjc>	* AaronSw is a robot - not aaron
10:17:51 <em-scribe>	Frank, thinks we need to get together and make sure 
we're on same page... one person easy, two people harder
10:17:59 -->	danbri (~danbri@pc-62-31-92-5-az.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined 
#rdfcore
10:18:01 <em-scribe>	yep jjc
10:18:05 dajobe dajobe_1 10:18:11 <em-scribe>	syntax doc
10:18:13 <bwm>	-agenda 10
10:18:14 <em-scribe>	-------------
10:18:14 <Jema>	Agenda item 10: Status of Syntax WD
10:18:15 <Jema>	command not recognised
10:18:20 *	danbri waves, reiterates his regrets, lurks (on phone)
10:18:41 <em-scribe>	draft status -- starting to get a bit long (includes 
relax, etc.)
10:18:48 <danbri>	(er, on phone elsewhere, I mean)
10:19:16 dajobe dajobe_1 10:19:25 <em-scribe>	dajobe, looking for people 
willing to review
10:19:35 Jema jjc JosD 10:19:40 <em-scribe>	jjc, willing to review
10:19:46 <em-scribe>	josh, willing to review
10:20:00 <em-scribe>	patrick, willing to review (will try)
10:20:34 Jema jjc JosD 10:20:43 <em-scribe>	ACTION: jjc, JosD, and Patrick 
willing to reiview
10:20:54 <em-scribe>	ACTION: jjc, JosD, and Patrick willing to reiview 
syntax specifcation when it comes out next week
10:20:58 <em-scribe>	....
10:21:18 <dajobe_1>	em asks about relaxng and asking relaxng people to look 
at it
10:21:22 <bwm>	-agenda 13
10:21:24 <dajobe_1>	dajobe: sure, when it is more baked
10:21:24 <Jema>	Agenda item 13: Issue: rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty
10:21:24 <Jema>	See: 
http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty
10:21:24 <Jema>	See: 
http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty/test001.rdf
10:21:57 <em-scribe>	bwm: has any reviewed test case?
10:22:02 <em-scribe>	(silence)
10:22:08 <em-scribe>	ok, still open
10:22:12 <DanC>	yes, I did
10:22:23 <DanC>	... review testcases
10:22:30 dajobe dajobe_1 danbri DanC 10:22:31 danbri DanC 10:22:32 <DanC> 
sent mail
10:23:28 <em-scribe>	Pat confirms he's reviewed this as well and ok
10:23:31 <em-scribe>	Josh also...
10:23:46 <bwm>	-agenda 14
10:23:47 <Jema>	Agenda item 14: Review test cases on para 196
10:23:47 <Jema>	See: http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/redland/rdfcore/rdfms-para196
10:23:54 *	DanC sees "Discuss the PL proposal:  Do we still think its a 
runner?"; might better call in; on the other hand, might leave it to Sergey.
10:24:00 *	dajobe_1 throws something at jeremy for nearly objecting...
10:24:02 <em-scribe>	test case approved
10:24:39 <em-scribe>	ACTION: JosD, jjc to review Agenda item 14: Review 
test cases on para 196 http://cvs.ilrt.org/cvsweb/redland/rdfcore/rdfms-para196
10:24:45 <DanC>	is sergey on the call yet?
10:24:53 <em-scribe>	not yet (i dont think(
10:24:56 <em-scribe>	ah!
10:25:05 <em-scribe>	sergey, ron and ghram have all joined
10:25:11 <bwm>	-agenda 15
10:25:14 <Jema>	Agenda item 15: Issue: #rdfms-difference-between-ID-and-about
10:25:14 <Jema>	See: 
http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfms-difference-between-ID-and-about
10:27:05 -->	gk (~GK@adsl-63-194-208-34.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined 
#rdfcore
10:27:12 <em-scribe>	(discussion happen ... not captured really by scribe)
10:28:03 <em-scribe>	AaronSw: when I mentioned this to rdf-ig, a few people 
reponded that this decision may hurt
10:28:23 <em-scribe>	ACTION: AaronSw to bring these reponses back to the 
working group
10:29:08 <em-scribe>	ACTION: bwm to review test cases
10:29:16 <em-scribe>	-agenda 16
10:29:18 <Jema>	Agenda item 16: Issue rdfms-aboutEach
10:29:22 <bwm>	-agenda 16
10:29:23 <Jema>	Agenda item 16: Issue rdfms-aboutEach
10:29:31 dajobe dajobe_1 danbri DanC 10:29:32 dajobe dajobe_1 10:29:39 
<em-scribe>	dajobe: kill it :)
10:29:58 -->	sergey (melnik@Barnacle.Stanford.EDU) has joined #rdfcore
10:30:15 <em-scribe>	??: not reasonable to remove somethign without a 
better solution
10:30:35 <em-scribe>	jjc: are there test cases (other than W3C's internal use)
10:30:54 <em-scribe>	Pat: not sure how to reflect this into model thery
10:30:58 dajobe dajobe_1 10:31:08 <em-scribe>	bwm, dajobe: purely syntax... 
macro
10:31:49 *	DanC wonders about the "purely syntax" view of aboutEach; see 
the test I sent a while ago
10:32:18 <gk>	if we don't shoot it now, will we be able to shoot it later?
10:32:45 <em-scribe>	bwm: I personally don't like it, but it is being used. 
Per charter, we're tasked to clean up spec.
10:32:48 dajobe dajobe_1 10:33:02 <em-scribe>	dajobe: this is really the 
only thing i'm interested in cutting out
10:33:39 <DanC>	suggestion: cut it and send a flag up to the CG to ask 
whether this is in charter or not
10:33:40 Jema jjc JosD 10:33:41 Jema jjc JosD 10:33:51 <DanC>	... and ask 
developers. Get explicit responses from rdf-ig
10:34:12 <DanC>	(I think we already have explicit "good riddance" from 
several developers, no?)
10:34:18 <em-scribe>	jjc: note that if we keep this in, we have to deal 
with a variety of additional open issues
10:35:56 <em-scribe>	bwm: propose to indeed remove this
10:35:59 dajobe dajobe_1 10:38:07 <em-scribe>	ACTION: Dajobe to flag 
aboutEach removal in Syntax document and bring this to the attention of the 
RDFIG
10:38:37 <dajobe_1>	action bwm to bring to rdfig or me?
10:40:11 <em-scribe>	ACTION: Em to put removal of aboutEach to CG to ask 
whether this is in charter or not
10:40:39 <em-scribe>	APPROVED: remove aboutEach
10:40:43 *	dajobe_1 cheers
10:40:50 *	DanC cheers
10:41:11 *	em-scribe offers a moment of silence for aboutEach
10:41:20 <dajobe_1>	lol
10:42:31 <em-scribe>	-agenda 17
10:42:32 <Jema>	Agenda item 17: Datatypes
10:42:32 <Jema>	See: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0598.html
10:42:32 <Jema>	See: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Dec/0003.html
10:42:46 *	dajobe_1 notes incidently, closes rdfms-propElt-id-with-dr issue 
since dr (distrib referent) gone
10:42:57 dajobe dajobe_1 10:42:58 dajobe dajobe_1 10:43:21 <em-scribe> 
dajobe, jjc... what additional open issues go away with the removal of 
aboutEach
10:43:23 <em-scribe>	?
10:44:15 <dajobe_1>	above one; and a previous decision also moot I think
10:45:32 <dajobe_1>	rdfms-aboutEach-on-object is now moot
10:45:58 <gk>	Sergey proposes to incorporate expolicit namin of lexical, 
value spaces and mapping into the S description (followinjg PL, G propodals)
10:47:50 <dajobe_1>	sergey tantalises us with his new proposal...
10:50:19 *	em-scribe offers telconference bridge on data types if this will 
help speed things along
10:52:31 <em-scribe>	next steps: sergey and ghram will meet... sergey will 
produce new document by next Wednesday.
10:52:37 *	em-scribe cheers
10:53:06 <em-scribe>	next steps: sergey and ghram will meet... sergey will 
produce new document by next Wednesday for review by next Friday's 
teleconference
10:53:23 <em-scribe>	Introductions: Patrick Sticker
10:53:51 <em-scribe>	wokring on content management and distribution... 
internal infrustructure on managment and delivery of large documentation set..
10:54:11 <em-scribe>	looking at RDF for providing the means for supporting this
10:54:23 <em-scribe>	academic background; computational linguisit and CS
10:54:38 <em-scribe>	NLP to classification, datamining, inference semenatic
10:55:26 <em-scribe>	key interests: standardizes ontologies, meta-ontologies
10:55:28 *	DanC is happy to see Sergey and Graham take the ball on 
datatypes; sorry I couldn't be on the call today.
10:55:45 <em-scribe>	bwm: working code?
10:55:49 <bwm>	-agenda 19
10:55:50 <Jema>	Agenda item 19: Semantics of Reification - what progress
10:56:12 <em-scribe>	patrick: prototype at this stage
10:56:26 <bwm>	-agenda 20
10:56:26 <Jema>	Agenda item 20: f2f
10:57:06 dajobe dajobe_1 10:57:16 <em-scribe>	dajobe: F2F, Technical plenay
10:57:30 <em-scribe>	note: Feb 22-23? heads up... in france
10:57:53 <dajobe_1>	feb 25,26
10:58:01 <dajobe_1>	assuming dates I have are correct
10:58:15 <dajobe_1>	then plenary and rdf-interest meeting maybe Thursday 28th?
11:00:54 <em-scribe>	meeting - adjourned
11:00:59 <em-scribe>	datatype cabal
11:03:32 <bwm>	-close
11:03:33 <Jema>	The meeting is closed
11:03:34 <--	dajobe_1 has quit ("Leaving")
11:03:36 <Jema>	the action/decision list has been mailed
11:04:39 *	em-scribe has to leave... but feel free to continue 
dicussions... i think even past 30 min :)
11:04:48 <em-scribe>	-em
11:04:50 <Jema>	command not recognised
11:06:54 *	dajobe lurks on irc only
11:08:15 ---	bwm is now known as bwm-scribe
11:08:55 <bwm-scribe>	easier to apply constraints to value space
11:09:13 <bwm-scribe>	its easier to define a new datatype from the value space
11:10:20 <bwm-scribe>	jeremy does like Grahams names as there are too many
11:10:37 <bwm-scribe>	suggests function from value space to lexical space
11:10:46 <bwm-scribe>	pat: not so easy
11:11:01 <bwm-scribe>	all statements about classes are conjunctive in rdfs
11:11:12 <bwm-scribe>	if we introduce this, it may have nasty effects
11:11:40 <bwm-scribe>	patrick: practical concerns: someone going to have to 
define names for lex space val space etc
11:11:53 <bwm-scribe>	users will have to keep track
11:13:00 <bwm-scribe>	public at large will find this too complex
11:13:26 <bwm-scribe>	patrick is concerned over complexity
11:13:54 <bwm-scribe>	graham: denies there is no new machinery or semantics
11:16:50 <bwm-scribe>	sm: there may be a misconception over the extra 
semantics required
11:17:29 <bwm-scribe>	sm: claims no special machinery needed for datatypes
11:23:48 <bwm-scribe>	ps: a literal is a pair; the type is part of the literal
11:24:24 <bwm-scribe>	ps: the tricky bit is handling subclass of 
relationships between datatypes
11:24:44 <bwm-scribe>	ps: subclass relationships applied to datatypes only 
applies to the value spaces
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**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Dec  9 22:12:26 2001
Received on Thursday, 13 December 2001 10:46:47 EST

This archive was generated by hypermail pre-2.1.9 : Wednesday, 3 September 2003 09:43:02 EDT