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Re: [Fwd: Re: PUT vs strong ETags]

From: Wilfredo Sánchez Vega <wsanchez@wsanchez.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:06:56 -0800
Message-Id: <9145C457-26D2-4331-AE44-277ABB4C9BB0@wsanchez.net>
Cc: Jim Whitehead <ejw@soe.ucsc.edu>, Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>, WebDAV <w3c-dist-auth@w3.org>
To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>

On Dec 8, 2005, at 5:02 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> Wilfredo Sánchez Vega wrote:
>> On Dec 7, 2005, at 5:49 PM, Jim Whitehead wrote:
>>> I don't have a firm read on whether the Apache HTTPd behavior is  
>>> non-compliant. However, I strongly feel that its current behavior  
>>> is very bad for clients.
>>> What clients really need is for the ETag to not change unless the  
>>> content changes.
>>   Well, I'd argue that what they *really* need is for the ETag to  
>> change if the content changes.
> +1
>>   While I agree than changing the ETag for otherwise-same content  
>> is inconvenient and best avoided, unless it's happening a lot (it  
>> this case it happens at most once), I don't see that as tragic.
> I note that I changed my own opinion several times now. One  
> possible interpretation of Apache's behaviour is that in the case  
> where content indeed changes several times within a second, a  
> client may *want* not to have to re-sync until the resource is  
> stable again. This is achieved by the current implementation.

   Yes, but it would also be achieved if a strong ETag was delivered  
during the first second (including on PUT).  Use of a weak ETag  
doesn't help with that, as far as I can tell.

   My read is that the using a strong ETag in the first second would  
be more correct than the current implementation and that issuing no  
ETag at all in the first second would be the most correct.  But the  
latter may be more problematic in a practical sense than the former,  
despite being more correct.

>>> So, if an ETag starts out weak, it should stay weak. If it starts  
>>> strong, it should stay strong. The weak->strong transition is a  
>>> problem. I don't think clients care particularly about weak vs  
>>> strong etags. In fact, if the server does some amount of  
>>> background processing on the content, but returns a semantically  
>>> equivalent representation then the server should be using weak  
>>> etags consistently, AFAIK. For example, if a CalDAV server  
>>> receives an event, bursts it out into its database, then  
>>> reconstructs a slightly different XML representation that is  
>>> semantically equivalent, it should only be using weak etags in  
>>> this case to represent the fact that there are minor tweaks to  
>>> the representation of the resource.
> I think I disagree here. A few days ago I asked about this on the  
> HTTP mailing list, and the consensus seems to be:
> - just because a server accepts a PUT and returns a (strong) ETag  
> doesn't mean that it didn't rewrite the contents
> - the ETag is *not* for the entity body returned with PUT, but for  
> the entity you would get upon a subsequent GET/HEAD
> - and yes, RFC2616 needs to be clarified
> (see thread <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/ 
> 2005OctDec/thread.html#13>)

   Consensus on that thread seems to be that a ETag on PUT should be  
the ETag you'd get on a subsequent GET.  I don't see any discussion  
about strong vs. weak and whether changing from strong to weak and  
back is a good idea, which is, I think the point that Jim was making.

>>   OK, that's a vote for "the weak etag is wrong".
> My take is that the current drafts requirements for strong ETags  
> and for ETags returned upon PUT are questionable. I think it has  
> been demonstrated that
> 1) in some cases, weak ETags are just fine, and that
> 2) a requirement to return an ETag upon PUT will *need* to also  
> clarify what that means
> The latter optimally would be an erratum to RFC2616, which well  
> require a discussion over on the HTTP mailing list, with proposed  
> text changes and consensus among the readers of the list (I'm *not*  
> volunteering to do this because of other priorities).

   I'm not sure why you think the requirements for strong ETags in  
the current HTTP spec is a problem.  I agree that clarification on  
the expected ETag on PUT would be useful.

Received on Thursday, 8 December 2005 19:54:11 UTC

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