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Draft Minutes: 1 May 2012 f2f meeting

From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 13:11:24 -0400
Message-ID: <4FA953BC.3000306@nokia.com>
To: public-webapps <public-webapps@w3.org>
The Draft minutes from WebApps' May 1 f2f meeting are in 
<http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html> and are copied below.

If you have any corrections, please send them to this list by May 15.

-Thanks, AB

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                          WebApps WG f2f Meeting

01 May 2012

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile, Josh_Soref,
           Dimitri_Glazkov, Arnaud_Braud, Adam_Klein, Soonbo_Han,
           MikeSmith, Paul_Kinlan, PaulKinlan, plh,
           Travis_Leithead, anne, odinho, glenn,
           Russell_Berkoff(Samsung), Rafael_Weinstein, Tony, Ross,
           Kris_Krueger_(krisk), EricU, Vincent_Scheib,
           Bryan_Sullivan, Glenn_Adams_(glenn), Dan_Druta,
           Magnus_Olsson, Jonas_Sicking, Doug_Schepers,
           Tantek_Celik, Ted_OConnor, Greg_Billock, Adrian_Bateman,
           Wonsuk_Lee, Paul_Cotton, Alex_Komoroske, Ojan_Vafai,
           Yosuke_Funahashi, Ryosuke_Niwa

    Regrets
    Chair
           Art, Charles

    Scribe
           Josh_Soref, chaals

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Welcome and Agenda
          2. [6]Agenda
          3. [7]Charter/Pub Status
          4. [8]Web Components
          5. [9]Web Intents
          6. [10]Web Intents Demo
          7. [11]Push SMS
          8. [12]File API
          9. [13]IME
         10. [14]URL
         11. [15]Agenda Bashing
      * [16]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

<ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref

<ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless

Welcome and Agenda

    ArtB: When you do introductions, please indicate if you are not
    a WG member

    plh: as the charter has been reupped, most people are not WG
    members

    chaals: if you were a WG member and haven't reupped, please nag
    your AC rep

    ArtB: Josh_Soref is a fantastic scribe, he works for RIM
    ... RIM is not a member

<plh> [17]WG participation status

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42538/status

    ArtB: when you speak for the first time, please introduce
    yourself

    chaals: when Josh_Soref says stop, you have to stop, because
    you'll be lost otherwise
    ... I'm chaals, Opera, I'm a chair

    ArtB: I'm ArtB, from Nokia, I'm a chair

    Paul_Kinlan: I'm PaulKinlan from Google, registered as
    observer, now member

    ericu: I'm ericu from Google, I'm a member

    glenn: glenn, Cox, member

    DanD: Dan Druta, AT&T, member

    Arnaud: Arnaud Braud, France Telecom, member

    bryan: Bryan Sullivan, AT&T, member

    Russell_Berkoff: Russell Berkoff, Samsung, Observer

    aklein: Adam Klein, Google, Observer

    rafaelw: Rafael Weinstein, Google, Observer

    tross: Tony Ross, Microsoft, Member

    rniwa: Ryosuke Niwa, Google, Member

    MikeSmith: Mike Smith, W3C Team, Member
    ... the first one to rejoin

    PaulC: Paul Cotton, Microsoft, Chair of HTML WG, your host

    anne: Anne, Opera, Member

    ordinho: Odin Horthe Omdal, Opera, Member

    Travis: Travis Leithead, Microsoft, Member

    shan: Soonbo Han, LG Electronics, just joined [and was dropped
    by recharter]

    ArtB: there's an Action for someone to bug ACs for rejoins

<chaals> ACTION: chaals to bug AC reps of ex-members to re-join
    after new charter [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-643 - Bug AC reps of ex-members to
    re-join after new charter [on Charles McCathieNevile - due
    2012-05-08].

    magnus: Magnus Olsson, Ericsson, Member (need to rejoin)

    krisk: Kris K, Microsoft, Member

    plh: Philipe Le Hegaret, W3C Team, Member

    scheib: Vincent Scheib, Google, Member

    dglazkov: Dimitri Glazkov, Google, Member

<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group
    Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 01 May 2012

<magnus> present Magnus_Olsson (magnus)

Agenda

    ArtB: We always preallocate an item or two
    ... and then figure out the rest as we meet
    ... we have a couple of topics
    ... we had penciled Intents for 1-2pm
    ... James_Hawkins was going to manage that

    PaulC: The preallocated name badges were to help the secretary
    ... just register at the desk
    ... if you have problems, let me know

    ArtB: Here is the list of potential topics
    ... most of them I added
    ... (in alphabetical order)
    ... and then dglazkov added components
    ... and bryan added server sent events

<anne>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting

<anne> ^^ meeting agenda

<MikeSmith> agenda:
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting

    ArtB: WebAppsSec has CORS on its agenda for tomorrow morning
    ... they had allocated half an hour for LC CORS

<MikeSmith> Jonas Sicking has entered the fray

    ArtB: 9:45-10:15

    chaals: How many people are interested in CORS?

    [ Quite a few hands rise ]

    chaals: does anyone object to bringing them in here?

    [ No objections ]

    ACTION ArtB to talk to WebAppsSec about a joint slot

<trackbot> Created ACTION-644 - Talk to WebAppsSec about a
    joint slot for CORS LC [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    chaals: Welcome sicking

    sicking: Jonas_Sicking, I'm the late jonas sicking, Mozilla.
    Not The Late Jonas Sicking, just late

    chaals: Any other topics not in the wiki?

    scheib: I spoke briefly with ArtB
    ... I'm the editor of the Pointer Lock specification
    ... i'm new to editing
    ... it's just been added to the charter

    ArtB: I think it would be useful for new specs that have been
    added
    ... that people are starting to implement

    chaals: I might put looking at the Charter/Schedule/New Specs
    ... either at the beginning. or at the end
    ... any preference?

    anne: it might be good to put them at the beginning

    bryan: I have a conflict for 11-1

    chaals: we won't put push there
    ... going around the room

<MikeSmith> list of specs is at
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#API_Specifica
    tions

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#API_Specifications

    chaals: we've got less gaps here (today), than there (tomorrow)

    dglazkov: Shadow DOM, HTML Templates

    chaals: I'll put bryan (Push/SMS) to 2:30-3 (today)
    ... and Web Components for 11:15-12:30 (today)

    dglazkov: my items is procedural ... gauging temperature

    chaals: IndexedDB

    ericu: we have a request from someone from Google who can't be
    here today
    ... can it be tomorrow?

    chaals: Yes we can

    ArtB: i'd like a slot for Hixie 's 4 CRs
    ... where we are, can we get someone to fill in the gaps
    ... how do we manage future work
    ... v. getting to rec

    chaals: "Hixie's hand-me-downs" 11:30-12:30 (tomorrow)

    Travis: 10 minutes for DOM3 events/DOM4 from that slot?

    chaals: is that going to be short?

    anne: we had the longer one last time

    Travis: it should be short

    anne: we need 15 minutes for Full Screen
    ... ArtB mentioned that

    chaals: the Late Douglass Schepers
    ... people who have not introduced yourselves
    ... please introduced yourselves

    shepazu: Doug Schepers, W3C Team Contact, Member

    tantek: Tantek Celik, Mozilla, Observer

    hober: Ted O'Connor, Apple, Member

    anne: Is the Stream API that's an extension to XHR going
    anywhere?
    ... is the editor here?

    gbillock: Greg Billock, Google, Observer

    MikeSmith: please put the IME API

    chaals: i'll try to leave space for breaks
    ... how many people have read the new charter?

    [ ~5 hands ]

    chaals: 4 of us were lying

    shepazu: I don't think chaals read it, and he wrote it

    bryan: the link on the webapps page is to the old charter

<anne> charter: [22]http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/

    Josh_Soref: the main webapps page is unusable

    bryan: the w3c pages don't work well on iPads

    shepazu: Action bryan to buy me an iPad

    chaals: Action bryan to buy everyone an iPad

    bryan: the style sheet is generally bad

    chaals: who's driving the screen?

    ArtB: I am

    [ ArtB projects PubStatus ]

Charter/Pub Status

<MikeSmith> [23]new WebApps charter

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2012/webapps/charter/

    ArtB: we have over 700 people subscribed to our list
    ... of those, only 30-40 people are really active
    ... i like to keep pub status accurate

    glenn: I have a comment to shepazu

<plh> [24]Agenda for today

      [24] 
http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting#Agenda_May_1

    glenn: it might be helpful to say XHR subsumes ....

    shepazu: can we make emmandations?

    plh: nope

    chaals: CORS
    ... we'll look at this tomorrow

    anne: I don't see how it's a plan

    [ the label for CORS says "LC Period ends 1-May-2012" ]

    anne: but the statement is accurate
    ... there have been no comments raised
    ... there was one "we should design this differently"
    ... there was a comment about making it more performant on
    mobiles
    ... that was related to caching

    chaals: do you expect a second version

    anne: if we tinker with caching, then we'd need a second
    version
    ... there's also From-Origin (the opposite of CORS)
    ... there are long term plans re: merging CORS + fetching

    shepazu: you should talk about that in the slot

    chaals: If you're speaking, you need to speak loud and to the
    center of the room

    anne: we can't fix all the bugs

    ArtB: so move to CR?

    anne: there have been no LC comments

    chaals: we expect to move to CR in two weeks?
    ... Clipboard APIs and Events
    ... halvord stein is not here
    ... is anyone following that closely enough?

    [ no ]

    ArtB: do we know implementation status?

<tantek> One request for the new WebApps charter (starting July
    1 2012 presumably) - please switch to using the W3C wiki
    (instead of webapps wg-only wiki) :
    [25]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/

      [25] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/

    anne: there's implementations
    ... but they have differences

    rniwa: depending on platforms, there are variations
    ... there are issues involving determining Same-Origin
    ... affecting what can/should be stripped
    ... it might be needed

    chaals: so that's work in progress

    anne: there's an attribute for secure usage?

    chaals: CORS - testing
    ... and test facilitator, and test suite?

    odinho: me

    chaals: what's the status of the test suite?

    odinho: for the test suite
    ... i've been reading through the tests that are there
    ... i've incorporated the things that are missing into Opera's
    Test Suite
    ... but i haven't gotten entirely through the WebKit tests

    chaals: and that hasn't been sent back to the group

    krisk: tests that are submitted are a wide range
    ... we should go through them

    sicking: we have a couple of tests that are pretty big
    ... but they won't run anywhere else (they use "yield")
    ... would you like us to submit those
    ... a lot of the tests are expressed as data
    ... you could write a new wrapper around it

    odinho: i've looked at it

    chaals: I'm trying to get a bird's eye view
    ... summary: odinho is looking at it others are working on it
    ... is there a test coordinator for Clipboard APIs

    rniwa: I don't think so
    ... how would we test it?

<plh> I think it would be good for mozilla to submit what they
    have, and we figure out in the longer run how to modify them

    rniwa: it can't be from the web page
    ... so it has to be manual

    shepazu: so you define manual tests

    anne: there's a WATIR framework

<anne> [26]Watir

      [26] http://watir.com/

    chaals: don't sign up to do something if you don't have the
    bandwidth for it
    ... DOM4

    anne: the Plan statement (for DOM4) isn't quite correct
    ... at some point we'll add new features
    ... better event registration
    ... extending ClassList
    ... varadic? arguments

    chaals: do we push DOM4 through and start DOM5
    ... what's the rush to get DOM4 finished

    anne: you could push DOM4 through and work on DOM5

<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask if somebody wants to give
    update about plans for Quota API spec

    anne: but we don't have a way to manage forks (maintaining DOM4
    and working on DOM5)

    plh: we can't link to an unstable thing from a spec

    chaals: that discussion is about w3c process
    ... that's out of scope for this WG

    anne: i know there are people that want it
    ... but i have limited bandwidth
    ... we could publish dom4 now
    ... it's way better than dom3

    chaals: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft, Member

    Travis: only the WebPerf WG has requested to link to DOM4

    plh: a bunch of specs want to

    rniwa: there's demand to deprecate DOM Mutation events (DOM3)
    ... i think mozilla is planning to unprefix the replacement

    chaals: it sounds like it would be good for the chairs to find
    someone with the bandwidth to branch of DOM4 and stabalize it
    ... is that someone standing up to volunteer?
    ... thank you very much Tantek

    ACTION ArtB to find someone to branch DOM4 and publish

<trackbot> Created ACTION-645 - Find someone to branch DOM4 and
    publish [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    anne: if you make the CR reqs loose, we can do it fairly
    quickly

    ArtB: is anyone interested in helping with that task?

    [ Silence ]

    chaals: don't worry anne, we'll come back and ask you again
    ... until you come up with the right answer, which is yes

    Travis: ArtB, please show PubStatus wiki page

    [ ArtB captures need to fork DOM4 for stable+publishing ]

<anne> [27]WebApps Pub Status (on screen)

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus

    Travis: bugzilla database is the prime spot for tracking (DOM3
    Events)
    ... i think we should issue another LCWD

    chaals: DOM Parsing + Serialization

    anne: the HTML WG might or might not work on it

    chaals: it's in our charter

    PaulC: the CfC for HTMLWG:ISSUE-198 closes today

    anne: in particular, if it closes, it will be forked from the
    html
    ... and someone from microsoft will publish it

    chaals: despite the fact that it's in our charter, we don't
    know if it will happen in our group
    ... is that right paulc?
    ... my sense was that we would do it in our group

    anne: no, they wanted it in the html wg

    PaulC: i'd have to do the research
    ... i don't think HTMLWG:issue-198 speaks to where it would be
    done

    ACTION chaals to talk to paulc about where
    Parsing+Serialization work is done

<trackbot> Created ACTION-646 - Talk to paulc about where
    Parsing+Serialization work is done [on Charles McCathieNevile -
    due 2012-05-08].

    chaals: Element Traversal is DONE
    ... File API

    sicking: the pub status for File API looks right
    ... we can possibly do it in Q2

    chaals: do we expect Q3
    ... let's say we expect it in Q3
    ... directories and systems

    ericu: that's all correct

    chaals: From-Origin Header

    anne: I don't think there's been much uptake
    ... drop it, i guess
    ... i've addressed all the comments
    ... there haven't been other comments
    ... I don't think anyone implemented it
    ... the idea was to prevent people from using CORS in places
    for which it wasn't quite intended
    ... but they started doing that anyway

    chaals: so that has no one to take it forward
    ... does anyone want it?
    ... it's up for grabs

    anne: i'm happy to continue editing it
    ... but if no one is going to implement it, then there's not
    much point

    chaals: let's start a CfC to publish it as a note
    ... if that doesn't shake anyone out, then park it as a note

<ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC to stop work on From-Origin spec
    [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-647 - Start a CfC to stop work on
    From-Origin spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    ACTION ArtB to start CfC to publish From-Origin as a note

<trackbot> Created ACTION-648 - Start CfC to publish
    From-Origin as a note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    bryan: I understand technically what it was intended to do
    ... and i understand it was a good idea
    ... but i'd like to understand how CORS stands if we don't have
    From-Origin

    chaals: Full Screen
    ... do we have a test coordinator?

    anne: no

    chaals: ok, so we need one

    WonSuk: WonSuk Lee, Samsung, Member

    plh: From-Origin is in the WebAppsSec Charter
    ... so we should talk to them

    ArtB: i didn't think it was a joint item

    plh: we can talk to them tomorrow

    adrianba: Fullscreen...
    ... is it two specs?
    ... there's a CSS bit

    tantek: it will be managed together

    ArtB: how close is it to somewhere?

<ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Fullscreen
    spec; coordinate with CSS WG [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-649 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD
    of Fullscreen spec; coordinate with CSS WG [on Arthur Barstow -
    due 2012-05-08].

    chaals: we expect a FPWD this Q
    ... Gamepad

    scheib: The Gamepad editor is Scott Graham, from Google
    ... the draft has been stable for the last little while
    ... chrome is behind a flag
    ... I believe firefox is soon to ship without a flag
    ... i don't see anything blocking

    plh: publish as LC?

    shepazu: FPLC?
    ... it's kind of funny

    chaals: you can do that
    ... full screen might do the same

<ArtB> ACTION: Art start CfC for FPWD + LCWD of Gamepad spec
    [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-650 - Start CfC for FPWD + LCWD of
    Gamepad spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    shepazu: why don't we have a session to do them

    chaals: Indexed DB
    ... we have a test suite
    ... it's on the agenda
    ... anything to say?

<anne> fwiw, Gamepad is not ready for LC

<anne> at least
    [31]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gamepad/raw-file/default/gamepad.htm
    l is not

      [31] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gamepad/raw-file/default/gamepad.html

    sicking: i don't think there's much to do

    chaals: IME?
    ... MikeSmith ?

<anne> e.g. GamepadEvent does not inherit from Event at the
    moment and does not define a constructor

    MikeSmith: do you need a Test Facilitator?

    chaals: yes, thanks

    MikeSmith: i'm happy to do it

    chaals: we need a FPWD

<ArtB> ACTION: Art start CfC to publish FPWD of IME spec
    [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-651 - Start CfC to publish FPWD of
    IME spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    chaals: anyone following Java bindings for WebIDL?

    Travis: i don't know anyone doing it

    chaals: i used to
    ... pointer lock?

    scheib: I'm the editor

    chaals: do you have a test faciliator?

    scheib: i don't know

    chaals: it's someone who commits to getting tests

<ArtB> ACTION: Art start CfC for Pointer spec [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-652 - Start CfC for Pointer spec [on
    Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    chaals: you can do it yourself

    scheib: i'll probably do it myself
    ... i'm not sure of the timeline

    chaals: Progress Events
    ... waiting on implementations

    anne: there's a test suite
    ... Ms2ger wrote tests that end up testing WebIDL
    ... which people get wrong
    ... the test suite doesn't test dispatch
    ... just the interface

    chaals: status?

    anne: when is Opera going to pass the test suite?

    chaals: Quota

    MikeSmith: I thought Kinuko Yasuda was working on it

    chaals: and that doesn't have a test facilitator
    ... looks like we need a lot of test facilitators

    ArtB: yeah, a lot of holes

    chaals: selectors
    ... it's waiting on me
    ... it's waiting on WebIDL
    ... as WebIDL is going to CR
    ... I think Selectors can go to PR
    ... the test facilitator should be me

    plh: we should have a link to the interop report

    chaals: expect an advancement to PR to Q2
    ... then it blocks again until WebIDL moves forward
    ... Server Sent Events

    ArtB: we published a LC last week
    ... we have 3 weeks
    ... i think there was a comment last week

    glenn: there was a comment about infinite reconnects

    chaals: we have comments
    ... i think everyone's had the same issue

    ArtB: the only tests i know of are Opera's
    ... can you submit them?

    odinho: ye-> [34]http://www.imagemator.com/ Imagemator, we can

      [34] http://www.imagemator.com/

    chaals: Shadow DOM

    dglazkov: been working on spec
    ... we have a test suite
    ... dominic has been doing them
    ... the spec is fairly stable
    ... i was going to ask about moving it to WD

    chaals: the procedure for moving to FPWD
    ... or LC
    ... is: as an editor, you write to the chairs and say "i think
    we're ready"

<ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Shadow DOM
    [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-653 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD
    of Shadow DOM) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    chaals: we write to the group asking for CfC

    ArtB: the thing about FPWD is that it starts a call for IP
    exclusions
    ... it's good for the feature set to be defined at a high level
    ... so the ip guys can look at that

    dglazkov: we're well past it

    chaals: in that case, we should [already] have a FPWD
    ... and we'll do that with you

    dglazkov: it's well pas that point

    chaals: URL

    MikeSmith: looking at anne

    anne: I'm working on encodings
    ... adam was editing, then mike

    ArtB: there's a warning from adam

    MikeSmith: we need to look through the tests
    ... next month we can look at it
    ... we could publish a FPWD now
    ... I can put it together

<ArtB> ACTION: Art start a CfC for FPWD of URL spec (Mike to
    not be lead Editor but will help to drive it) [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-654 - Start a CfC for FPWD of URL
    spec (Mike to not be lead Editor but will help to drive it) [on
    Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    chaals: FPWD needs to lay out what the thing does, which we're
    at
    ... Screen Orientation
    ... aka Screen Lock
    ... view orientation

    ArtB: Mounir is working on it

    [ plh, the Frenchman, properly pronounces his name, and asks
    how there could be a problem pronouncing it ]

    sicking: i don't know

    ACTION ArtB to follow up with mounir about status of Screen
    Orientation

<trackbot> Created ACTION-655 - Follow up with mounir about
    status of Screen Orientation [on Arthur Barstow - due
    2012-05-08].

    chaals: WebIDL
    ... Travis, look good?

    Travis: i am the test facilitator, but i haven't facilitated

    chaals: Web Intents

    gbillock: we probably need a test facilitator
    ... i'll sign up for that

    Travis: we need a FPWD

    gbillock: we'll talk about that this afternoon

    chaals: Web Messaging

    ArtB: in CR

    chaals: as of this morning
    ... that's PostMessage

    ArtB: according to caniuse.com, it has the most deployment

    chaals: but no tests

    shepazu: i don't think this is the right room to draw them from

<ArtB> ACTION: barstow find a Test Facilitator for Web
    Messaging CR [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-656 - Find a Test Facilitator for Web
    Messaging CR [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    chaals: Web Sockets
    ... we need to finish CR/Test suite

    krisk: MikeSmith helped get a server up
    ... i think MikeSmith 's going to update one module
    ... but it seems to be going along pretty well
    ... tests are pretty complete

    ArtB: so MikeSmith will update the module

    chaals: run the Test Suite, ask for PR

    ArtB: are you aware of implementations that pass everything?

    krisk: we're pretty close

    anne: there's a problem in Web Sockets relating to Isolated
    Surrogates
    ... the spec requires throwing
    ... but preference is to replace
    ... i don't think it's tested by the test suite

    glenn: there was discusston on isolated surrogates in
    public-script-coord

    anne: it's related, but [currently] it's not the same
    ... and it won't change
    ... spec requires throwing
    ... most want not throwing

    adrianba: i thought we threw

    anne: for consistency with XHR which doesn't throw

    Josh_Soref: and web authors won't expect it to throw

    krisk: i think we should talk about this in our Hixie specs
    slot

    chaals: Web Storage

    ArtB: i think there's a late DOM4 change
    ... which blocks Web Storage
    ... does anyone implement that?

    krisk: I don't think anyone does yet
    ... it's definitely blocked on that

    ArtB: Yikes,

    krisk: we should talk about that in the Hixie specs slot

    chaals: Web Workers

    ArtB: CR today

    Travis: someone doing that should work on Web Messaging, since
    they're intertwined

    anne: Web Workers has feedback that may require going back to
    LC

    chaals: that's right
    ... into that slot too
    ... XBL2
    ... anyone love that enough to follow up?

    ArtB: wait for sicking

    chaals: my impression is that it's going to be parked

    anne: I think smaug is the only person who cares

    chaals: XHR

    anne: 2 does'nt existr

    s/does'nt existr/doesn't exist/

    anne: I wrote a test suite once
    ... but no one cared
    ... i tried to find someone, and odinho ...

    odinho: i had an intern

    chaals: making an intern isn't a good idea
    ... since they disappear
    ... we got a request from Mozilla when we rechartered
    ... to look at web app packaging
    ... sort of a JSON version of Widget Packaging
    ... and we have a potential draft starting point
    ... do you, tantek, have any further idea on its status?

    tantek: is this Manifests?

    chaals: yes

    shepazu: yes
    ... and do you know who that is?

    tantek: i think that was Michael Hanson
    ... what's the input you are requesting

    chaals: it's in our charter
    ... mozilla has a spec and someone supposedly into it
    ... do they have someone to do the work
    ... and you can say i don't know

    tantek: i don't know

    chaals: the answer is "we don't know"

    ACTION shepazu to contact dbaron (Mozilla AC), cc tantek

<trackbot> Created ACTION-657 - Contact dbaron (Mozilla AC), cc
    tantek [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-05-08].

    [ Break for 15 minutes ]

Web Components

    chaals: sicking wasn't here
    ... XBL2 should be parked as a WG Note

    sicking: if things go south, can we bring it back?

    chaals: yes, it's in the charter

    plh: is there a lot of work?

    shepazu: do we do a CfC?

    chaals: I volunteer to update the status of the document

<ArtB> ACTION: Barstow start CfC to create a WG Note for XBL2
    (and Chaals will do the work) [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-658 - Start CfC to create a WG Note
    for XBL2 (and Chaals will do the work) [on Arthur Barstow - due
    2012-05-08].

    chaals: where are we?

    dglazkov: lots of work has been done since last TPAC
    ... the main feedback at TPAC
    ... was we brought a lot of stuff
    ... but it was a bag of goods
    ... rather than a coherent whole
    ... we needed a declarative form
    ... where is the spec
    ... confinement/isolation
    ... lightweight/functional
    ... with the help of shepazu, we got things we needed
    ... it takes more work to get a component in webkit bugzilla

<shepazu> s/help of shepazu/help of ArtB and shepazu/

<shepazu>
    [39]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/57f8cfc4a7dc/e
    xplainer/index.html Web Components Explained

      [39] 
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/57f8cfc4a7dc/explainer/index.html

<dglazkov>
    [40]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shado
    w/index.html

      [40] 
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html

    s|
    [41]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shado
    w/index.html|->
    [42]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shado
    w/index.html Shadow DOM ED|

      [41] 
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html
      [42] 
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html

    dglazkov: we talked to a lot of people
    ... i tried to come up with as solid of a spec as i could
    ... simultaneously we developed this in WebKit
    ... behind a flag, and only available in Developer builds
    ... i don't want a repeat of WebSQL
    ... this helped inform ourselves about things
    ... it helped flush out things
    ... the basis of the spec was the XBL2 part
    ... there has been a lot of things added
    ... a lot of that is precision of shadow dom
    ... htmly things
    ... guided by our implementation
    ... today the spec is in pretty good shape
    ... we have a small bug list

<dglazkov>
    [43]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14
    978

      [43] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14978

    s|
    [44]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14
    978|->
    [45]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14
    978 Shadow DOM Bug Tree|

      [44] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14978
      [45] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14978

    dglazkov: some are small things, "not MUSTy enough"
    ... there's one (largish) addition we're contemplating
    ... bug 15818

    s|s/does'nt existr/doesn't exist/||

    s|2 does'nt existr|2 doesn't exist|

    [ XXX scribe suspects that the scribe script has reached its
    breaking point ]

    dglazkov: i also worked on the HTML Templates Spec
    ... an idea
    ... we have the templates element (see the Explainer doc)
    ... what makes it "interesting" is that it requires HTML Parser
    modifications
    ... I wrote the spec and WebKit modifications
    ... to see how it was received
    ... several people voiced Cautious Concern
    ... Hsivonen and Abarth
    ... the two parser people whose brain's we picked
    ... they James Graham from Opera wasn't very happy either
    ... there's still a need for an extra mode (?)
    ... the <template> tag has 2 modes
    ... "declare anything"
    ... "declare anywhere"
    ... we're going to drop "declare anywhere", we don't need it
    for Web Components
    ... "declare anything" we're going to keep, since it seems
    useful

    Josh_Soref: you're going to drop anywhere, and you're keeping
    anything?

    [ Laughter ]

    dglazkov: right
    ... Custom Elements is the next spec in line
    ... i'm planning to start working on it next week
    ... i spent the last couple of weeks researching the problem
    space
    ... i wrote a poly-fill
    ... if you have Shadow DOM

<dglazkov>
    [46]https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill

      [46] https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill

    s| [47]https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill|->
    [48]https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill
    Polyfill (using Web Components)|

      [47] https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill
      [48] https://github.com/dglazkov/Web-Components-Polyfill

    dglazkov: in Custom Elements, one of the new thing is fictional
    syntax
    ... these items aren't controversial
    ... loading definitions of components
    ... which is a big issue
    ... don't want Synchronous
    ... but Asynchronous has issues: When am I a component/When am
    I unknown?
    ... instantiating a Component
    ... has interesting effects
    ... maybe i'd like to be able to drop into user script
    ... but if i'm instantiating from Parser, that maybe isn't a
    good idea
    ... more mundane issue
    ... custom elements are DOM Objects
    ... with an extended prototype chain
    ... i don't know how to spec this
    ... since it creates a dependency on ECMAScript

    anne: what exactly?

    dglazkov: Custom Elements extend the Prototype Chain

<plh> partial interface?

    dglazkov: I don't want to create a dependency on ECMAScript

    anne: why is creating a dependency on ECMAScript a problem?

    plh: it seems like you're creating a partial interface

    dglazkov: right, but it's arbitrary

    anne: you should talk to cameron
    ... he'll probably say that you have to define it yourself in
    prose

    s/cameron/heycam/

    scribe: i'll look into it next week, after this session
    ... another thing, relating to elements
    ... we came to TPAC with custom tags
    ... there was much grievance

    s/custom tags/custom tags: x-slider/

    scribe: we switched to use elements
    ... it's a magical element, you can only set it once
    ... button is fancy button
    ... during instantiation, you have to specify it
    ... eric myer, of myerweb

<dglazkov>
    [49]http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2012/04/10/element-custom
    ization/

      [49] 
http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2012/04/10/element-customization/

    scribe: i want to bring it up, i'm feeling very ambivalent
    ... i'd like to figure out who would be the right person or
    forum
    ... i posted to webapps
    ... and crickets chimed in

    tantek: isn't this more HTML WG than WebApps WG?

    dglazkov: that's what i'd like to know

    shepazu: about inheriting from Button / Slider / Calendar
    ... there's been talk in the past about having psuedo elements
    ... say for CSS
    ... say for the slider's thumb

    dglazkov: we looked at the css variables spec
    ... the spec says css variables inherit into shadow dom

    shepazu: that calls out the need for pseudo elements

    dglazkov: with css variables, you don't

    shepazu: i don't understand yet

<dglazkov>
    [50]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/samples/wi
    dget-theming.html

      [50] 
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/samples/widget-theming.html

    dglazkov: i know the MS guys did pseudo elements
    ... and we have them in WebKit
    ... and we hate them
    ... what browsers use pseudo elements to style bits of things
    ... i think you use pseudo classes

    sicking: what do we use to style the placeholder
    ... or input elements?

    tantek: it's a psuedo class

    dglazkov: in any declarative paradigm
    ... if you're saying button, or div is shelf
    ... you're defining a subclass
    ... and when you instantiate it
    ... you don't say, it's a shelf, oh, it's also a div

    shepazu: could there be another thing other than localname?

    dglazkov: i don't want to mess with

    tantek: could you consider defining it as a mixin rather than a
    subclass?

    dglazkov: that's decorators

    tantek: why not have everything be a mixin?

    dglazkov: when you're dealing with everything as an api
    ... you want to ensure things are always the same
    ... you don't want a style recalculation to cause your object
    to lose its decorator/api?

    tantek: that's done through css?

    dglazkov: well, decorators are done through css
    ... and then there's the moving it out of the tree

    tantek: well like the class= attribute

    dglazkov: but then you can have "spooky action at a distance"
    ... if you change the class name
    ... what happens to its state?

    tantek: that invariant could be maintained

    dglazkov: i think that's possible
    ... when the developer of a component
    ... relies on it to be a button
    ... if you want to have multiple things as a tree
    ... that's definitely possible

    sicking: it introduces complexity
    ... roughly Multiple Inheritance in C++
    ... it's very powerful, but very complicated

    dglazkov: it's just extending a prototype chain
    ... moving down the chain

    tantek: it seems like reinventing Java Class Hierarchies

    dglazkov: it's not reinventing
    ... just naturalizing JS inheritance into the DOM

    s/Present+ glenn//

    shepazu: in SVG we have the USE ELEMENT
    ... you have a use element, you reference an elemnt

    s/elemnt/element/

    scribe: and you get another instance
    ... but you can add attributes to the copy
    ... so you can have a plain star
    ... and then style one copy to green
    ... or red
    ... at TPAC, you said "No"
    ... is that still the answer?

    dglazkov: i think having the shadow tree with separate style
    ... has dragons

    shepazu: so we could reuse it?

    dglazkov: you will lose some of the invariants that the SVG
    spec provides
    ... but the way Shadow DOM is defined

    s/Present+ PaulKinlan//

    shepazu: i think all that SVG needs to keep
    ... is the way to style each instance separately

    dglazkov: that's possible today
    ... SVG uses Shadow DOM in a very limited way
    ... it doesn't have insertion points
    ... if you want to extend to that
    ... it's OMG

    ArtB: from a procedural perspective
    ... we agreed to a CfC for Shadow DOM
    ... what about Template Spec?

    dglazkov: I think Template Spec, as it is right now, we're
    going to kill it
    ... and we'll pursue it in HTML
    ... in "Custom Elements"

    rafaelw: I think that's fine

    ArtB: so we're not going to publish this

    dglazkov: we're probably not going to publish it

    rafaelw: one of the more salient issues of the template element
    spec
    ... is two things
    ... what mechanism creates inertness
    ... and where do those elements reside?
    ... on the ML, there was a propose that they be lifted out
    ... there was an item about it being objectionable
    ... if we can sort out that
    ... i think that's the most useful+controversial part
    ... if we can get consensus on that, i think we can get
    progress

    [ Time Check ]

    anne: hsivonen, abarth, jgraham are not here
    ... hober is here
    ... basically you lock out XHTML uses of templates

    hober: all things being equal, we shouldn't introduce more
    divergence between HTML and XHTML

    dglazkov: we have a Mexican Standoff
    ... between should we hurt XHTML
    ... vs. should we introduce something very non performant

<MikeSmith> cough TAG cough

    ojan: Ojan, Chrome, Member

<hober> s/Chrome/Google/

<shepazu> Alex Komoroske

    komoroske: Alex Komoroske, Google, Observer

    anne: elements inserted based on the template element
    ... you don't want them to be in
    ... because they cost resources
    ... and are exposed by QuerySelectAll/etc

    dglazkov: can we modify the XHTMLParser?

    anne: I have a draft that tries to modify XHTML parsing
    ... but it hasn't ...

    dglazkov: can we CfC dropping XHTML?

    [ laughter ]

    s/XHTML/XML/

    chaals: there's a proposal to make XML a kinder gentler beast

    anne: there's a big leap for moving things into a detached dom
    tree
    ... it's cool and works for me

<MikeSmith> need a magic namespace

    anne: but i don't think it would fly for others

    tross_: technically, it's inserted into the tree
    ... and then removed before anyone looks

    anne: the people who will care is the TAG
    ... and they want a document served as HTML or XHTML to behave
    the same

    PaulC: More specifically, the Director cares

    chaals: changing XML is like changing the W3C Patent Policy
    ... but it isn't written in Stone
    ... it's on a wiki somewhere

    anne: we can say "we want to do this in html"
    ... we don't think it will work in xml

    PaulC: make a comment on the html wg's document

    anne: that's done, there's a bug
    ... but that won't get TAG attention until it ships

    ojan: no one has an alternative proposal that's technically
    feasible
    ... every other proposal has serious technical problems

    anne: if you don't address hiding from DOM Query

    ojan: and every future api that might do a network request or
    live action request
    ... needs to be template aware

    anne: in effect everyone needs to be aware

    shepazu: can we introduce the feature and say "does not work
    with xml"
    ... and let them solve it?

    anne: we already have that, it's called <noscript>

    dglazkov: we could also say we require an esoteric changes

    sicking: if i were to do this in Gecko
    ... i wouldn't touch Expat
    ... i'd change how the tree constructor handles events from
    Expat
    ... i don't think we need to violate XML
    ... wasn't there a proposal to stick things into <script> tags?

    dglazkov: there was

    sicking: although that also doesn't work in XML

    chaals: we can say "hey world, we're going to upset your apple
    cart/orchard"
    ... and see if they care

    MikeSmith: +1

    anne: you definitely violate the spirit

    chaals: there's no question that it makes a mess

    tantek: if you're using XML, can't you use XSLT?

    dglazkov: resolution: we'll try to spec it as "doesn't work in
    XML"

    tantek: I don't think it's Apple Specific

    [ Laughter ]

    ArtB: dglazkov, have you thought about publishing the
    Explainer?

    dglazkov: i thought about it
    ... but it seems like a sequencing issue

    chaals: it makes sense to do it

    dglazkov: i can reformat it
    ... update it (for Shadow DOM
    ... and then publish

    shepazu: i can help

    dglazkov: if you guys have time
    ... please dig into Shadow DOM and help me eliminate non MUSTy
    stuff

    anne: there might be a lot of those things

<ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web
    Components Explainer (when an ED with TR template is available)
    [recorded in
    [51]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-659 - Start a CfC to publish a FPWD
    of Web Components Explainer (when an ED with TR template is
    available) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-05-08].

    dglazkov: I do spend a lot of time staring at the spec
    ... but it's hard for the person who wrote something to see its
    faults
    ... any more questions?

    chaals: thank you dglazkov

    [ Applause ]

    chaals: let's have an hour for lunch. Resume at 1:30pm

Web Intents

<dglazkov>
    [52]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shado
    w/index.html

      [52] 
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html

    s/Present+ Tony Ross/Present+ Tony_Ross/

    Paul_Kinlan: Hi, turns out I'm a member
    ... as of a couple of hours ago
    ... we're going to talk about web intents
    ... i want to give you a demo
    ... i don't know how much you know about what we're trying to
    achieve

    [ We try to get projector projecting ]

    [ Lights go out ]

    [ chaals: Nope, that's not the one ]

    Paul_Kinlan: there are a couple of UCs where it's very hard to
    build integrations
    ... with third parties
    ... the whole point is that even though we have widgets
    ... there's no way to make integrations
    ... the biggest common action is Share
    ... the next is Bookmark
    ... but things people want to do:
    ... Edit Documents, Pick resources
    ... we want to make this easy
    ... let someone pick something from their cloud storage

    [ Projector had temporarily done something positive ]

    [ Projector failed ]

    [ adrianba: I just pressed random things until it worked ]

    [ shepazu: that's how they do most things ]

    [ Laughter ]

    [ chaals: alright, do the interpretive dance ]

    Paul_Kinlan: there are a couple of common actions
    ... that we think are core to the web
    ... users do common things:
    ... share data
    ... save physical data to things (like Drop Box)
    ... they pick data from things (Word Document, Image, Video)
    ... they could pick from Flickr, Drop Box, YouTube
    ... one of the things I was going to show (in the demo) was
    Imagemator
    ... what we would see on the screen is a big button that says
    "Choose image"
    ... the browser knows which services you use
    ... the demo would let you pick from Picasa
    ... Picasa doesn't use Intents, but it has a public API which
    lets you do it
    ... You can do server to server work
    ... but we're starting to see purely client side applications
    ... a lot of their functionality is built on the client
    ... when you have applications sharing lots of data (Video,
    ...)
    ... the data might be local to your network
    ... or proximate to your network
    ... we'd like to let these two applications talk directly
    ... like a bridge
    ... we have demos that do both
    ... need a network, or client side resolution
    ... where we literally process a blob
    ... the demo itself doesn't do much work
    ... it finds a service that does editing
    ... if the browser doesn't have a service for a thing
    ... the browser can use an indexing service (store, search
    engine)
    ... to discover a service
    ... In the demo, you'd press edit
    ... you don't have anything installed
    ... the Chrome Store would be searched

<anne> link to the demo?

    Paul_Kinlan: you'd pick Picnik

    s|anne link to demo?|-> [53]http://demos.webintents.org/ Web
    Intents Demos|

      [53] http://demos.webintents.org/

    s|link to demo?|-> [54]http://demos.webintents.org/ Web Intents
    Demos|

      [54] http://demos.webintents.org/

<anne> ah

    DanD: have you looked into a scenario
    ... where the application developer wants to choose a certain
    instance
    ... say I'm a photo sharing service and I want to choose Picnik
    ... I want to do it in a way that makes sense
    ... not to choose a default intent
    ... but a specific case

    Paul_Kinlan: We've talked about that in the TF
    ... an "Explicit Intent"
    ... say you're photoshop.com
    ... You want to be open to discovery
    ... however you've got specific integration with

    DanD: and the user should be able to override in the end?

    gbillock: explicit intents, it's unclear whether they will be
    overridable
    ... explicit intents let web content make the picker
    ... and letting web developers use Web Intents for internal RPC
    ... the way that you could bring up a browser guaranteed
    redress proof UI
    ... is interesting
    ... we're hoping with experimentation we'll figure that out

    chaals: the answer is that it should be overridable

    shepazu: it should be up to the UA

    chaals: if you have a local installed application
    ... it should work
    ... say you don't want to use photoshop.com
    ... you want to use photoshop

    gbillock: that's totally within scope
    ... we definitely want to be able to build a bridge between web
    apps and local apps
    ... for some embedders like OSs
    ... like Android
    ... there ought to be a way to create a mapping
    ... or Windows 8's "Contracts"
    ... you shouldn't be able to just go from a web app to
    photoshop
    ... but also from photoshop to say save to your dropbox

    Paul_Kinlan: we also want to be able to do picking

    s/picking/viewing/

    scribe: it should be easy to do Open With

    gbillock: currently the spec is focused on what you do for the
    Web Page
    ... there's language to say that this isn't the only way
    ... saying that there should be a local execution model
    ... but that's left up to the UA

    chaals: how do you go with AppCache

    Paul_Kinlan: we've done a lot of experimentation with AppCache
    ... we've experimented with RPC/RPH
    ... it's hard to get things to work with AppCache'd content

    chaals: because it sucks

<chaals> s/chaals: because it sucks//

    Paul_Kinlan: most people use a query string with RPH
    ... but Intents uses something different, so it could work

    magnus: you said you could have a UA
    ... that could download it using a search engine
    ... what happens while it's being retrieved

    Paul_Kinlan: the implementation in Chrome
    ... does the query using the web store (http)
    ... the API itself is Async
    ... the UA pops up the picker
    ... but the page isn't blocked
    ... if you have no networking
    ... then there might be no options for the user
    ... but how that works is up to the UA
    ... and because it's Async, that shouldn't affect the page

    gbillock: the idea that a user might be trapped with no options
    ... is definitely unappealing to developers
    ... one possibility is to let clients query to see if things
    are installed
    ... but that leads to fingerprinting
    ... that's a weak supercookie
    ... instead the direciton we're trying to go

    s/direciton/direction/

    scribe: is to let client applications provide fallback
    suggestions
    ... that the UA can use if the picker would otherwise be empty
    ... instead of being empty, you might see DropBox or whatever
    ... our current experimental implementation uses the chrome web
    store
    ... so they have to be installable
    ... the end state we'd want to get io
    ... is to have a web for web pages to identify themselves as
    services
    ... we've been discussing that in the HTML WG
    ... do we have an <intent> tag
    ... or ...
    ... It looks like Hixie is most favorable to having an <intent>
    tag
    ... but combining RPC, RPH, <intent> together
    ... so they'd look the same for users
    ... giving us both Imperative and Declarative
    ... and the same User Facing appearance

    anne: what Hixie said was quite reasonable
    ... that still doesn't say how you identify an app

    gbillock: Gmail would say use RPH for mailto:
    ... and register <intent>

    anne: on my web page, i have a contact form
    ... and i have a send me an email link

<gbillock>
    [55]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overvie
    w.html

      [55] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html

    s|
    [56]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overvie
    w.html|->
    [57]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overvie
    w.html Web Intents specification|

      [56] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html
      [57] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-intents/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html

    gbillock: if you look at 3.1
    ... there'd be a services parameter
    ... in chrome
    ... the picker is a list of optional services
    ... the top having items the user has used
    ... possibly it would query the store

    anne: if the developer provides urls
    ... what do you show?
    ... not just the url?

    gbillock: no, the page title + favicon, probably
    ... or if we've processed it, something else

    chaals: I want to go back to overrides
    ... the UC will come from Accessibility
    ... if you made a request for an Explicit Intent
    ... it should be possible to pick something else
    ... if you pass off text, then anything can
    ... but if you pass word97 documents
    ... then there are some other things that can handle it

    shepazu: obviously, if i have something, i can describe it
    ... is there any other way to give information to the user?

    gbillock: in the picker itself?
    ... the client presents the initial messaging to the user

    shepazu: is there a way to give a description of the requested
    action?

<shepazu> s/description/human-readable description/

    gbillock: the UA has the complete Intent call bundled up
    ... what the action is
    ... what the type is
    ... any extra data
    ... the UA has to use that
    ... it can definitely customize itself
    ... to say "which of these services do you want to use to edit
    a contact"
    ... we got a bit of feedback from UI people to provide per
    action wording

    [ We have a projected Cosmos ]

Web Intents Demo

    gbillock: Selection refers to the picker
    ... since the UA is in charge of that
    ... the UA can be arbitrarily sophisticated in terms of
    coaching the User

<chaals> hi

    s|hi|-> [58]http://www.imagemator.com/ Imagemator|

      [58] http://www.imagemator.com/

    Paul_Kinlan: this is Imagemator

    [ Clicks Choose Image ]

    Paul_Kinlan: these are the user's services
    ... and these are the store services
    ... I'll use ... CloudFilePicker.com
    ... this is Picasa
    ... it isn't direct, it's via the Picasa API

    [ Picks a face with two phones pasted ]

    [ Laughter ]

    [ Clicks Edit ]

    scribe: I'll pick Mememator, i haven't installed it
    ... this has no server to server logic
    ... eventually this will work offline
    ... I'll pick Inspirationmator

    [ Enters Practice Demos; They work ]

    Paul_Kinlan: The UA passes the data around

    glenn: does this pass data around retain tainting?

    Paul_Kinlan: not in this case
    ... in here, the canvas isn't tainting
    ... I want to show two actions "Share blob" and "Share page"
    ... Web Intents can handle both

    adrianba: who decides what to be shared?
    ... in the Windows 8 contracts, we publish different options
    ... the link, the link with metadata, the html

    shepazu: like clipboard

    Paul_Kinlan: like clipboard
    ... right now, the application invokes one type
    ... saying i'm invoking the Image
    ... the link would be the physical image, and not a reference

    gbillock: there are two strings
    ... for match making
    ... the actions and the type
    ... the actions must match exactly
    ... and types must match, or if they're mime types must overlap
    ... if twitter knows to share Images, Links, or Videos
    ... then it would register for 3 distinct things
    ... so you get a footprint over all the things you understand
    ... that's our theory right now

    Paul_Kinlan: the client application says it will do one thing
    ... your application will say it can support three types of
    data
    ... we might need to change it so you can offer one of two
    things as a request

    adrianba: there's a problem where you have multiple datatypes
    with precedence
    ... but it seems that like now the onus is on the user right
    now
    ... i know that twitter can take: page link, page link+title

    Paul_Kinlan: i think the onus is on the Client app to pick
    sensible types

    adrianba: as a user of the source app
    ... i have to know which button to pick to trigger to the
    destination app i have

    Paul_Kinlan: right now, our apps have one definitive
    type/action
    ... share was kind of interesting
    ... because very few apps share physical data
    ... most share data

    shepazu: i agree with adrianba, share is ambiguous
    ... look at facebook
    ... at one point you only shared a link
    ... now it also embeds some of the content

    gbillock: the thing starting the activity is the client
    ... and the thing performing is the service

<Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to ask about "inlining services"
    into a page with intents

    shepazu: i think there will need to be a negotation

    gbillock: the question of how complicated the handshake should
    be
    ... is obviously
    ... in order for this to work, the ecosystem has to agree
    ... Facebook/G+ occasionally figure out what you meant
    ... with that in mind, we've erred on the side of no negotation
    ... expand what you except

    anne: i think for most user how to pick a service will be
    complicated enough

    gbillock: we decided to burden the service to enumerate what it
    supports

    anne: maybe you should have a way for the client to offer
    multiple at a time
    ... and let the service indicate its preferred payload

    Josh_Soref: this is not "Paste Special"

    shepazu: the user is stupid

    anne: the user has better things to do

<Zakim> timeless, you wanted to talk about Share v. Save

<chaals> scribe: chaals

<shepazu> s/stupid/stupid (sarcastically)/

    timeless: I made a trip and tried to sign in. I could print a
    PDF or follow a link. I would like to decide to send it
    somewhere.
    ... you were expecting me to send it via a sharing service, but
    I want to save it somewhere and then use that to do my sharing.

    gbillock: You want to be able to translate the intents?

    timeless: I am saying they are the same thing

    Paul_Kinlan: I don't have an answer - there are different
    things that people expect from what they see.
    ... I don't think we don't want to fire two intents, or people
    will end up publishing washing lists of services that do
    everything.

    timeless: fallback is to have trasnlator intents. Doable and I
    want to make it easy - but I see share and save as the same.
    ... I can print to my device, rather than on paper. It is
    really a save, but as far as the computer is concerned it is a
    print.

    Paul_Kinlan: Share was a broadcast, save was putting it
    somewhere. I can see the mental models behind this, but we have
    to work on this

    gbillock: The API doesn't spell out the verbs. It is an
    invocation of delivery leaving things open for usage to
    coalesce.
    ... reason common verbs are useful is that they give a way t
    develop a good expectation to agree on what you are trying to
    do.
    ... There are edge cases which are hard to think about - should
    a kindle support print and share and save?

<timeless> s/way t/way to/

    gbillock: we're waiting to see what happens with usage - what
    emergent verbs there are.

    kamos: we are waiting to get feedback.

    shepazu: In your demo you open a tab for the events. It might
    be interesting to be able to load a service inline on a page...

    Paul_Kinlan: we have two dispositions. All these demos use new
    tab, for transitory implementation motivations (bugs)
    ... there is an inline disposition that should be able to do
    that.
    ... let's you see the context, it is relatively unspoofable, it
    is an area we have been wary of.

    s/unspoo/spoo/

    scribe: we weren't confident that we could make it secure.

    shepazu: can't you have a UI option where the user gets to
    choose how it appears?
    ... eg in maps I want to have something within a page.

    Paul_Kinlan: we want to xplore it but haven't.

    gbillock: the obstacle is that the service has to provide an
    iframeable interface, which is subject to attack and we haven't
    figured out how to solve that yet.
    ... we are expecting a proposal from someone so we will see
    what happens.

<Zakim> adrianba, you wanted to talk about example of sharing a
    page

    adrianba: wanted to give an example from windows. We have
    contracts, and share contract is one of them. The browser
    supports the idea of sharing a page. User decides to share a
    page.
    ... browser is a client in web intents terms. Can share link, a
    link+metadata, or HTML snippet.
    ... when I choose share, windows finds services that supports
    one of those formats. Twitter app might take links+data, a
    bookmark does something similar, email might use the full HTML
    snippet, ...
    ... we allow any service that responds to a type to appear.
    User doesn't have to think about the options.
    ... sounds like your model is the service say it can take one
    of those threee.

    Paul_Kinlan: We ahve a model where you can share a link. Once
    we have that we can go fetch more detail, and put it in the
    metadata pat of the intent.
    ... you have a link plus extra metadata. Have to think about
    service applications - they can ignore data, read it if it is
    there.
    ... not all clients will share all data. In Android services
    don't populate metadata consistently.

<timeless> s/Present+ PaulKinlan//

    Paul_Kinlan: using name as a URL was based on describing a
    particular experience. Tell people how you do it, what to
    populate the data with. Was going to be a lot looser on
    definition, with people using URL as value for where the
    information will come from.
    ... both client and server would choose what they send/receive.

    adrianba: feels a lot less predictable about what the user is
    going to receive

<timeless> s|s/Present+ PaulKinlan//||

    adrianba: what is the URL for, what can I do with that?

    anne: doesn't the service also register types it accepts? I
    think you have teh same system.

    adrianba: if I ublish a url of something with an image, do I
    mean the page or the image on it?

    anne: thinki it makes more sense to send both.

    gbillock: one way to do both is an option we discarded (can
    reconsider). To integrate with types, we intend that it be
    possible to match a microdata type with complete schema
    capability...
    ... contact might be name+phone, or might have a lot more data
    there.
    ... idea is that user has a mental image of the service they
    are using.
    ... and so builds expectatoions of what is going to happen.
    ... There is flexibility in terms of how much payload is
    available to fill in for the service.
    ... weakness and strength.
    ... if your phone accepts a contact with no phone number., that
    seems wrong

    shepazu: Could you use this across multiple modalities?

    gbillock: We envisage the user agent being able to do things
    like use NFC to send stuff...

    DanD: Who is in control of selecting the directory of services?

    gbillock: User Agent. Services the user has installed that meet
    the required intent.

    DanD: who provides the list of options for what to install?
    ... on mine it is meaningful - it gives me information about
    where the suggestions are coming from.
    ... good this is under control of the browser for sense of
    trust, user needs to know where the browser is going.
    ... side effect of that control limits discovery of other
    services which may be an issue.
    ... (vendor lock-in...)

    gbillock: Think client will be able to attach suggestions.

    DanD: more appropriate for app developer to recommend the
    directory, rather than having the user search the web. But you
    have to put the destination for searching into the user
    experience

    gbillock: this is a stock UI for inline installs. if there are
    suggestions from teh client side they show differently. Being
    able to attribute stuff comprehensibly matters...

<timeless> s/teh/the/

    DanD: deja vu here - this is uddi/wsdl/etc again...
    ... there were some good developments done there, so looking
    for the lessons there is a good idea.

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask how broad is the scope of
    intents and cross-application services, e.g. some examples
    discussed seem similar to OpenDoc/OLE, especially in local
    client-app

    tantek: deoms are awesome. scope is broader than I ahd
    understood. How broad is the scope intended to be?

    gbillock: spec is 'how pages invoke intents or get them
    delivered'
    ... leaves it up to the browser

    tantek: web apps, client apps, installed web apps are all in
    scope?
    ... that page has all the ability of HTML to send data
    anywhere, on the web or locally.
    ... including native apps?

    gbillock: in principle yes. we haven't done that yet, but it is
    in scope.

<timeless> s/ordinho/odinho/

    kam: scoped to websites, but could do this if there is demand.

    Paul_Kinlan: DAP is interested in this. We have been focused on
    webapp interactions. UA can provide a bridge to add native
    apps.

    tantek: do you know about opendoc and ola?
    ... systems for applications doing this. Have you looked at
    that?

    gbillock: nope.
    ... there is IPR in that area that should be looked at.
    ... (I know because I did some of it)

<Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to ask about a site registering
    itself as a service

    shepazu: I am on flickr, it wants to tell me it can be a picker
    service. Is there something that lets them put something on
    their page so I can register it when I go there?

    gbillock: yep.

<timeless> s/I ahd/I had/

<tantek> for the minutes - s/ola/OLE

    gbillock: right now we have experimental stuff, but yes we want
    to be able to do that through declarative syntax for the page.

<timeless> s|for the minutes - s/ola/OLE||

<timeless> s/ola/OLE/

    shepazu: if i share stuff with twitter, can I make that a
    default rather than picking every time?

    gbillock: spec leaves that to user agent, we expect that to be
    possible.

    timeless: having something is important to avoid security
    issues - you don't want a spamming site to get your twitter

    shepazu: there should be a user involvement to make sure

    gbillock: there is.

<Zakim> timeless, you wanted to note WAI concerns and
    Portability/Modality concerns

    timeless: if the client page is making a request and can force
    a directry that doesn't work for my device, or have an
    accessibility requirement for specialist services, or want a
    different language,
    ... the client might not have the right answer for the user.

    DanD: we already have scripts taht pick stuff...

    timeless: right, but they are not necessarily useful for a new
    device.

<timeless> s/taht/that/

    DanD: agree there may be an incompatibility. Would rather have
    app eveloper test and verify than have the user agent assume
    the thing will work.

<timeless> s/eveloper/developer/

<timeless> [ Break until 3:30 ]

<plh> [59]Current group participants

      [59] https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42538

Push SMS

<timeless> chaals: we have an item in the Charter for Server
    Sent Events

<timeless> ... the to things people have come up with are Push
    SMS stuff

<timeless> ... and a notification that can wake up / remotely
    start an app (web page)

<timeless> ... i'll hand the floor to bryan

    [Yosuke Funahashi introduces himself - co-chair of TV/Web IG]

<timeless> yosuke: Yosuke Funahashi

<timeless> s|Funahashi|Funahashi, co-chair of TV/Web IG|

<timeless> bryan: I've taken the UCs and broken them into a set
    of

<ArtB> UCs:
    [60]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push

      [60] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push

<timeless> ... more discrete things which i'll call proto
    requirements/ideas

<timeless> s|UCs:
    [61]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push|
    ->
    [62]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push
    Push UCs|

      [61] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push
      [62] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting/Push

<timeless> ... there's a link to a w3-ified draft from within
    OMA

<ArtB> Draft Bryan mentioned:
    [63]http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html

      [63] http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html

<timeless> ... it doesn't address all of the requirements

<timeless> s|Draft Bryan mentioned:
    [64]http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html|->
    [65]http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html EventSource
    Push (Draft)|

      [64] http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html
      [65] http://ddpsdk.net/tm/w3c/eventsource-push.html

<timeless> ... I've built this, and have a demo (which I won't
    try to show today)

<timeless> ... and there will be a social network demo called
    "Mobile Social Networking"

<timeless> ... at XXX

<timeless> ... we noticed that XMPP connections burn battery
    real fast

<timeless> ... I want to get notifications of things that are
    really asynchronous

<timeless> ... e.g. an auction watcher

<timeless> ... doesn't want to keep an application open

<timeless> ... until recently, you couldn't run a browser in
    the background on mobile devices

<timeless> ... the next UC is a WebRTC client

<timeless> ... the phone application/dialer

<timeless> ... it doesn't take over the screen until it needs
    to

<timeless> ... we need some way to register for wake up events

<timeless> ... we were looking for a way that was more seemless

<timeless> ... @ TPAC:WebApps last year

<timeless> ... there was a request that things not be so
    specific

<timeless> ... my proposal was based on my experience w/
    SMS/OMA Push

<timeless> ... but we need to create a mapping between
    text-eventstream and these other things

<timeless> ... I ran into an issue involving blank lines

<timeless> ... Maybe we end up building on a processing model

<timeless> [ bryan is reading through the Push "Derived
    Requirements" section ]

<timeless> bryan: there needs to be a way to provide filters

<timeless> ... the ability to deliver information to a web app
    before it shows a UI

<timeless> ... my draft proposal integrates CORS

<timeless> s/integrates/incorporates/

<timeless> ... to apply the browser security model

    s/Push SMS/Push notification/

<Zakim> chaals, you wanted to ask where we go with this now...

<timeless> chaals: when this came into the charter

<timeless> ... i'm not sure if the people who wanted it are
    here

<timeless> [ sicking raises his hand ]

<timeless> chaals: you have a draft idea of a spec

<timeless> bryan: that may be fairly localized in application

<timeless> chaals: do you have this in web apps space?

<timeless> bryan: not yet

<timeless> chaals: so you're planning to edit this

<timeless> bryan: i could definitely support that

<timeless> ... i'm looking for expert input

<timeless> chaals: next step is to put it into w3 space

<timeless> ... and put it in the list of work items

<timeless> bryan: i'm hoping to have a conversation on things

<timeless> chaals: sure, but you start with an ED

<timeless> bryan: sure

<timeless> sicking: "We"

<timeless> ... (loosely)

<sicking> [66]http://jbalogh.me/2012/01/30/push-notifications/

      [66] http://jbalogh.me/2012/01/30/push-notifications/

<timeless> ... also have a draft proposal

<timeless> sicking: it doesn't cover everything from the
    proposal

<timeless> ... we could add things

<timeless> ... an application can say "i want to be able to
    send push notifications to the browser"

<timeless> ... the user agent allows the user to authorize that

<timeless> ... and if authorized, a URL is made available to
    the application

<timeless> ... and then it can use whichever applicable means
    to send messages back to the UA/page

<timeless> ... it should be integratable with Apple's push
    protocol

<timeless> ... currently you can't deliver that message to a
    particular page

<timeless> ... it shows up on the screen

<timeless> ... but when the user clicks on it, it goes to a
    certain page

<timeless> ... we could let pages say they don't want things on
    screen

<timeless> bryan: it sounds like OMAPush

<timeless> ... service indication

<timeless> ... (pre 2000)

<timeless> ... a text message and a url

<timeless> ... that wasn't directed to an application

<timeless> ... We added a way for an application to listen
    directly

<timeless> ... the key to OMAPush is that it uses Tokenization

<timeless> ... in 4 SMS payloads, you get up to 2k of content

<timeless> ... which isn't achievable without tokenization

<timeless> chaals: so it sounds like we have two sort of half
    starting points

<timeless> ... going into the same direction

<timeless> ... so the action is to look at them together

<timeless> bryan: i can look at mozilla's draft

<timeless> ... there's interest in integrating Apple's Push
    Notification

<timeless> ... and C2DM

<timeless> ... (Google's)

<timeless> ... that's where it stands

<timeless> ACTION bryan to look at proposals and start editing

<trackbot> Created ACTION-660 - Look at proposals and start
    editing [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2012-05-08].

<timeless> magnus: the proposal is to extend Server Sent Events

<timeless> ... with event streams

<timeless> ... but you're not limiting to that

<timeless> chaals: we're not limiting to that

<timeless> bryan: it may, but i found hoops, websockets may be
    better

<timeless> DanD: I'm a member of WebRTC

<timeless> ... this came up as a requirement

<timeless> ... it got escalated to WebApps

<timeless> ... we did some analysis

<tantek> <aside> chaals, follow-up from your question about
    Application Manifest, we (Mozilla) do have someone working on a
    spec, and are iterating in public with intent to submit to Web
    Apps WG for inclusion/publication:
    [67]http://mozilla.github.com/webapps-spec/ cc:sheapzu,sicking
</aside>

      [67] http://mozilla.github.com/webapps-spec/

<timeless> ... it's nice to have

<timeless> ... but there are emerging technologies which will
    make it a necessary feature

    [reply to your aside: Cool. We chairs are waiting for that :) ]

<timeless> bryan: in this draft, you'll see some text examples

<timeless> ... i'll send a link to the github which has a demo

<timeless> Arnaud: is there a speed requirement?

<timeless> bryan: i haven't seen any request for a service
    delivery deadline

<timeless> ... things tend to happen within a second or two

<timeless> Arnaud: if you use SMS as a bearer

<timeless> ... it can be slow

<timeless> sicking: Apple's has no promise of delivery at all

<timeless> bryan: it's best effort

File API

<timeless> chaals: where is Mr. Arun?

<timeless> sicking: this is a side project for arun

<timeless> ... he hasn't been able to work on this for a while

<timeless> ... he did a spurt of editing LC feedback into the
    spec

<timeless> ... i have to work off memory of the outstanding
    issues

<timeless> ... the big one is One-Time-Only

<timeless> ... and revoking

    ->
    [68]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsW
    G&component=File%20API&resolution=--- File API bugz

      [68] 
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=File%20API&resolution=---

<timeless> sicking: I think there was something else

<timeless> adrianba: there was the Close thing

<timeless> sicking: i think Close has the same problem space as
    Revoke

<timeless> adrianba: how concrete do we have to be

<timeless> ... and how interoperable do we need to be

<timeless> ... in IE we have a behavior where something may be
    cached in the decoded Image cache

<timeless> sicking: i suspect we'll want to define those things

<timeless> ... I suspect we'll be done with the File spec

<timeless> ... before we have those cases done for Images

<timeless> ... I suspect that long term we'll want to and
    require behaviors

<Zakim> chaals, you wanted to generalise Adrian's question onto
    tomorrow's agenda

<timeless> chaals: can we bake a stable version of the spec

<timeless> ... that gives a useful stable reference

<timeless> ... while we work forward

<timeless> adrianba: there's a difference

<timeless> ... between is it valuable to have specs that are
    roughly stable and useful

<timeless> ... and there's a part of a spec where there are so
    many variations based on underlying platforms

<timeless> ... saying for those things maybe we don't have to
    specify them maybe ever

<timeless> sicking: i suspect we'll want to define this

<timeless> ... i suspect for image cache, we probably have the
    same issue

<timeless> ... and if you hadn't brought it up

<timeless> ... we may not have tested it

<timeless> adrianba: web developers care

<timeless> ... and they care when it breaks them

    s/can we bake/I would like to take this point out of this
    discussion and put on the agenda tomorrow whether we can/

<timeless> ericu: they care if we underspecify it

<timeless> ... and it works in one browser and breaks in other
    browsers

<timeless> sicking: it'll affect every place that uses urls,
    and every place that reads out of blobs/files

<timeless> ... there are certain things we should define

<timeless> ... there are going to be lots of things we're going
    to miss

<timeless> ... some of these things should be specified outside
    the File API spec

<timeless> ... some i suspect we'll get to eventually

<timeless> shepazu: if there are several contentious issues

<timeless> ... and some that will be tricky to do

<timeless> ... maybe we should bring on an additional editor

<timeless> chaals: this isn't an editor issue

<timeless> sicking: it isn't an issue of the File API spec

<timeless> ... it's up to the other specifications to accept a
    hand off

<timeless> chaals: should we put out a call for a second editor

<timeless> ericu: oh, we have a second editor

<timeless> [ sicking raises hand ]

<timeless> shepazu: you're just very busy

<timeless> sicking: there's a very small amount of this that
    will go into the File API

<timeless> ... for One-Load-Only

<timeless> ... do we revoke at first access or at end of
    microtask

<timeless> ... the other is...

<timeless> ... if you start loading, and then you revoke

<timeless> ... should that load continue

<timeless> ... i think on the second one, i don't think we've
    gotten feedback from you, Microsoft

<timeless> adrianba: oh, I can give you feedback:

<timeless> ... once we've started, it's very hard to stop

<timeless> sicking: ok, so once a load has started it should
    finish

<timeless> adrianba: for Close

<timeless> ... if you're doing File Reader on a Blob

<timeless> ... the point of calling Close

<timeless> ... is to say you really want to let go of the
    resources

<timeless> sicking: i considered them to be the same

<timeless> ... but we can keep them as separate

<timeless> ... we should figure out

<timeless> sicking: the first thing is ArrayBuffer v.
    ArrayBufferView

<timeless> ... i dislike the topic enough that i haven't
    followed the discussion

<timeless> Josh_Soref: +1

<timeless> sicking: I suspect that we should be using
    ArrayBufferView

<timeless> adrianba: we can't do that soon

<timeless> sicking: i'm happy to leave it as an OR

<timeless> adrianba: I agree that it seems like it should be
    the right thing

<timeless> ... by the time we could change

<timeless> ... ECMA TC39 could progress

<timeless> sicking: I suspect that even if TC39 does something,
    it'll be called as ArrayBufferView or subclassed as that

<timeless> ... my feeling is we do ArrayBufferView now

<timeless> ... and if something new is added, we can add it
    later

<timeless> adrianba: do we always know

<timeless> ... when you use these things

<timeless> ... can we reliably feature detect support for
    these?

<timeless> sicking: the Blob constructor is hard to detect

<timeless> anne: you could just try

<timeless> chaals: you guys drink beer tonight and solve the
    problems

<timeless> anne: you're going to have the need for feature
    detection all the time

<timeless> ... it hasn't been a real problem in practice

<timeless> adrianba: i think these are relatively new features
    that haven't been detected

<timeless> anne: you need browser sniffing anyway

<timeless> adrianba: for incremental things

<timeless> ... for response-type in XHR, that's a good feature
    detect

<timeless> ... set and retrieve

<timeless> ... some things we're adding will be harder for
    feature detection

<timeless> ... there's an envelop thing with Must understand

<timeless> ... and things which aren't

<timeless> chaals: I really do mean: have a beer tonight, talk
    about this

<timeless> PaulC: i'd like a beer too

<timeless> anne: we can discuss it tomorrow

<timeless> ... feature detection is the agenda item

<timeless> ericu: File Writer, Locking

<timeless> ... sicking has a new proposal

<timeless> ... but we need to discuss it on the list

<timeless> [ Break until 4:30 ]

IME

<ArtB> [69]IME UCs and Requirements

      [69] 
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html

<timeless> MikeSmith: I worked with Kenji and Hironori

<timeless> ... the main cases where IMEs are important are
    Japan and Chinese

<timeless> s/Chinese/China/

<timeless> ... and to some extent Korea

<timeless> chaals: and Vietnam

<timeless> MikeSmith: since you don't have 10,000 keys on your
    keyboard

<timeless> ... you type on your keyboard, it goes into a buffer

<timeless> ... and gets converted

<timeless> ... into Kanji

<timeless> ... you don't want an IME to interfere with Games

<timeless> ... or other things

<timeless> ... similar to Screen Orientation/Pointer Lock

<timeless> ... interactively typing and getting suggestions
    from a web application

<timeless> ... like Google Suggest

<timeless> ... completing against things in a database in real
    time

<timeless> ... while you're completing against a database,
    you're potentially also completing against the IME

<timeless> Josh_Soref: most mobile devices also have IMEs for
    word completion for Latin languages

<timeless> MikeSmith: Interaction

<timeless> ... some people want feature compatibility with
    other runtimes

<timeless> ... Flash has the ability to interact with the
    System IME

<timeless> Josh_Soref: System IMEs are BUGGY AND INSECURE

<timeless> MikeSmith: as a game developer you can use this

<timeless> ... some people want to be able to provide a web
    based IME

<timeless> ... if you want to create a complete branded and
    consistent UE

<timeless> ... then if your application includes text input

<timeless> ... and you want to control IME behavior in your
    application

<timeless> ... then you want to be able to brand and style that

<timeless> yosuke: a lot of systems don't have IMEs installed

<timeless> ... and users don't know / can't install them

<timeless> ... so a web site might want to provide that

<timeless> ... installing that may require privileges

<timeless> MikeSmith: i don't know why we didn't put that one

<timeless> Josh_Soref: google provides that for Translate for
    Hebrew

<timeless> chaals: Yandex does that for Cyrillic

<timeless> MikeSmith: Hixie didn't think this was the right
    approach

<timeless> tantek: there's an existing CSS property ime-mode

<timeless> ... from IE5/Firefox

<timeless> ... that should address your Games case

<timeless> ... it's in CSS3 UI LC

<timeless> ... it's at risk

<timeless> ... there's a simple property there

<timeless> ... if there are UCs that are easy to add to them

<timeless> ... the spec is being locked down

<tantek>
    [70]http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-css3-ui-20120117/#ime-mode

      [70] http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-css3-ui-20120117/#ime-mode

<timeless> s/yosuke/ryosuke/

<timeless> ryosuke: there's no concept of IME on/off

<timeless> ... when you switch languages/layouts

<timeless> ... i don't think this new api addresses that either

<timeless> ... maybe there's a way to include that

<timeless> anne: given that web pages already make their own
    UIs

<timeless> ... it'd be helpful if there was an explanation as
    to why something is needed

<timeless> s/ryosuke:/rniwa:/

<ArtB> [71]IME ED

      [71] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.html

<timeless> chaals: when you implement it, what happens in
    practice is it doesn't work

<rniwa> hober: ?

<timeless> s/hober: ?//

<rniwa> timeless: ah, ok. hober: thanks

<timeless> rniwa: there's some interest in creating SVG editors

<timeless> rniwa: you want to be able to type things into the
    SVG

<timeless> ... and that isn't compatible with Content Editable

<timeless> Josh_Soref: some "system" IMEs are buggy and pushing
    insecure content into them

<rniwa> heycam: that's nice to know :D

<timeless> ... is just as dangerous as pushing data to font
    engines

<timeless> ... = nice root exploits

URL

<tantek> perhaps consider an informative reference to CSS3-UI
    for the 'ime-mode' property

<timeless> s/heycam: that's nice to know :D//

<timeless> MikeSmith: the URL Spec

<ArtB> [72]URL spec

      [72] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html

<timeless> ... the api part

    i/Topic: URL/Mike: We're about ready for a FPWD, the spec is
    reasonably advanced. Hopefully some time this month.

<timeless> ... if you're going to expose URL information

<timeless> ... then you want a way to parse them

<timeless> ... the part before this is the algorithm for
    parsing

<timeless> ... there's a definition of what a URL is

<timeless> ... it isn't defined anywhere

<timeless> ... the first two parts started in the html spec

<timeless> ... but there isn't anything specific

<tantek> I've done some research on what different specs call
    the different parts of URLs:
    [73]http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-piec
    es

      [73] http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces

Agenda Bashing

<timeless> chaals: there's a gap for people to wake up

<timeless> ... CORS

<timeless> ... D3E/DOM4

<timeless> ... Testing

<timeless> ... Versions/Stabilize

<timeless> ... -- these points here have dragons

<timeless> ... Feature detection

<timeless> ... -- anne + adrianba 's item

<timeless> ... [ their action was to drink beer ]

<timeless> ... Meeting Planning

<timeless> PaulC: when will you do that?

<timeless> ... i'd like to try to be here

<timeless> ... i'd like to have our TPAC plans straight

<timeless> chaals: yes, that being our next meeting

<timeless> ... anything else people want to put in our next
    meeting?

<timeless> glenn: where are we drinking beer tonight?

<timeless> chaals: that's later in today's agenda

<timeless> ... 9:45-10:15 CORS w/ WebAppSec

<timeless> ... HTML Stuff

<timeless> ... Index DB

<timeless> ... [ real item ]

<timeless> ... Full screen

<timeless> anne: 10 minutes

<timeless> ArtB: what's HTML?

<timeless> krisk: Hixie specs (Sockets, Workers, ...)

<timeless> chaals: Lunch

<timeless> ... Feature detection/stability

<timeless> ... Testing

<timeless> ... Meetings

<timeless> ... - wrap up + beer

<krisk> Tied House Brewery & Cafe 954 Villa Street Mountain
    View, CA 94041 (650) 965-2739

<timeless> chaals: thanks all

<timeless> [ Adjourned ]

<timeless> RRSAgent: make minutes

<timeless> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Art start a CfC for FPWD of URL spec (Mike to not
    be lead Editor but will help to drive it) [recorded in
    [74]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action08]
    [NEW] ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Fullscreen
    spec; coordinate with CSS WG [recorded in
    [75]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Art start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Shadow DOM
    [recorded in
    [76]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: Art start a CfC to stop work on From-Origin spec
    [recorded in
    [77]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Art start CfC for FPWD + LCWD of Gamepad spec
    [recorded in
    [78]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Art start CfC for Pointer spec [recorded in
    [79]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: Art start CfC to publish FPWD of IME spec
    [recorded in
    [80]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: barstow find a Test Facilitator for Web Messaging
    CR [recorded in
    [81]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action09]
    [NEW] ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish a FPWD of Web
    Components Explainer (when an ED with TR template is available)
    [recorded in
    [82]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action11]
    [NEW] ACTION: Barstow start CfC to create a WG Note for XBL2
    (and Chaals will do the work) [recorded in
    [83]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action10]
    [NEW] ACTION: chaals to bug AC reps of ex-members to re-join
    after new charter [recorded in
    [84]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-webapps-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 8 May 2012 17:11:50 GMT

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