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{minutes} TTWG Meeting 2015-06-04

From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 15:16:33 +0000
To: TTWG <public-tt@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D19626F6.21412%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending today's TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-tt-minutes.html


Minutes in text format:


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

04 Jun 2015

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          glenn, tmichel, nigel, Frans, pal

   Regrets
          andreas

   Chair
          nigel

   Scribe
          nigel

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]This meeting
         2. [5]Action Items
         3. [6]Issues
         4. [7]IMSC CR2
         5. [8]IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report
         6. [9]WebVTT review feedback
         7. [10]TTML2 editorial actions
         8. [11]AOB
     * [12]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 04 June 2015

   <glenn> i'm going to miss telling zakim what to do ;(

   <scribe> scribe: nigel

This meeting

   nigel: Goes through agenda, AOB?

   group: no AOB.

Action Items

   nigel: There are 4 TTML action items open - no progress so far
   on those. Some of the other actions are below.

   glenn: If someone feels like any of those action items need to
   be prioritised then let me know.

Issues

   issue-265?

   <trackbot> issue-265 -- Some bad tests -- open

   <trackbot>
   [13]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/265


     [13] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/265


   nigel: I've added another test that seems to be wrong, where
   the child of a seq container is asserted to
   ... have zero duration whereas the TTML spec says it should be
   indefinite.

   issue-341?

   <trackbot> issue-341 -- ambiguous definition for determination
   of descendant region identifier -- open

   <trackbot>
   [14]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/341


     [14] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/341


   nigel: I added a note to this.

   glenn: I've decided since I raised the issue that it's not
   adequate and we need something that works
   ... a little differently, so that the region of an element that
   has no ancestor with a region but some children
   ... that do then the region of the element is effectively
   multi-valent, in the sense that when evaluating
   ... the region of the descendants of that element you walk up
   the tree and set the region of the highest
   ... level of the tree to that region, and do the same again for
   other descendants. So that the region of
   ... the ancestors that did not specify a region switch as you
   walk up the tree.

   nigel: Makes sense to me - I think that's the same as my
   proposal, if I have understood correctly.
   ... Glenn, if you could add a description of what you're
   thinking to issue-341 that would be really useful.

   <glenn> ACTION: glenn to add note to Issue 341 to reflect his
   current thinking [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-tt-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-404 - Add note to issue 341 to
   reflect his current thinking [on Glenn Adams - due 2015-06-11].

IMSC CR2

   nigel: We received some detailed feedback from timeless this
   week.

   glenn: He's been very active in the HTML WG too.

   pal: I've briefly looked at it - it's mostly editorial; the
   question is how to document those.

   nigel: I don't think we have to do formal dispositions so I
   suggest we just add issues in the tracker for
   ... each of the points raised.

   pal: Okay I'm happy to do that.

   tmichel: Yes, I can confirm that would be sufficient. Reading
   the SOTD I think we should have added that
   ... we expect comments only on the new stuff since the new CR.

   nigel: I think there were only removals not additions. Is that
   right?

   pal: I can check. Regardless, comments are always welcome; the
   group can choose what to do about them.
   ... First I'll propose some resolutions.

   nigel: Perfect. I think there are a mix on the range from typo
   to substantive questions that need answering.

IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report

   pal: From last time, I need to work with tmichel now that he
   has returned.

   tmichel: So have I understood right that you want me to reach
   out and you can provide a list?

   pal: That's right, and there's a suggestion of creating a
   webinar.

   tmichel: Yes, right.

   pal: There's a question of if W3C does that, if it makes sense,
   etc.?

   tmichel: I have never done webinars for a CR phase but I will
   investigate if it's been done and how to proceed.
   ... But I can work with you pal to start preparing a list.

   pal: Is there a timeframe for sending out an email?

   tmichel: I would say the sooner the better unless there's a
   reason to delay.

   glenn: I just want to mention that Skynav has been asked by a
   client to do an IMSC addition to the TTML
   ... Verifier tool and most likely will also add support to it
   in the TT Presentation Engine to be able to
   ... present IMSC documents, so we will probably be able to sign
   up as one of the implementors.

   pal: Great, you're added to the list!

   glenn: Schedule will probably be Q3 or Q4 2015.

   action-388?

   <trackbot> action-388 -- Thierry Michel to Start preparing the
   imsc 1 implementation report form. -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [16]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/388


     [16] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/388


   tmichel: No real progress other than thinking about it. I think
   I'll proceed with a WBS as the easier way
   ... to manage it. I was planning to start a first WBS with a
   few test cases, and then if we agree on the
   ... general format then I could go through the whole list. I
   could propose something this week before
   ... the next meeting.

WebVTT review feedback

   action-395?

   <trackbot> action-395 -- Thierry Michel to Chase the
   accessibility wg for a date for getting webvtt feedback -- due
   2015-04-17 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/395


     [17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/395


   tmichel: Nothing to report - I have not received anything from
   a11y while I was away. I'll ping them again.

   action-396?

   <trackbot> action-396 -- David Singer to Produce evidence of
   request for wide review for webvtt, for the archive -- due
   2015-04-17 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [18]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/396


     [18] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/396


   nigel: dsinger has created a page to document the review at
   [19]https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebVTT_Wide_Review

   ... I don't think we can discuss this now, but just wanted to
   note for the minutes that it's there.

     [19] https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebVTT_Wide_Review


TTML2 editorial actions

   nigel: One of these has been done! I created a diagram and
   updated the text, and pushed it to Hg,
   ... then Glenn regenerated the ED based on it, so now you can
   see it at
   [20]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml2/spec/ttm

   l2.html#model

     [20] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html#model


   glenn: I had done an update on Hg yesterday and must have
   pulled it in then. Looking quickly at it,
   ... the left box looks a bit non-symmetrical at the bottom - a
   visual comment only. It looks a good
   ... start otherwise.

   nigel: As a process, that worked well for me, as the change got
   incorporated. Is there anything we
   ... should do differently next time?

   glenn: That's okay. It's useful to have an email notifying of
   the changes.

   nigel: Plus you did some work on the features.

   glenn: I started to add TTML2 features to Appendix E. I
   slightly modified the animation feature. I had
   ... a conversation with a TTML2 user about the issue of
   potential changes to the semantics of existing
   ... feature designators defined in TTML1. On reflection it is
   inadvisable to make semantic changes to
   ... designators unless there's a mistake or a blatant error in
   TTML1. We shouldn't for example extend
   ... or restrict the semantics of a feature already defined in
   TTML1, rather we should introduce a new
   ... designator reflecting the extended/restricted form. For
   animation, for example I had edited it in
   ... TTML2 to include the animate element, but in conclusion
   I've reverted that animation designator and
   ... introduced animation-2 as a new designator defining the
   extension to the animation element. If
   ... I made any other changes I'll revert them and add a -2
   flavour for TTML2.
   ... The other thing I've started doing is adding TTML2
   vocabulary, ruby, ruby-*, textEmphasis etc.
   ... For the first time I'm specifying whether a feature is a
   restriction or an extension to another feature
   ... now that we have vocabulary to express that. It was a
   useful experiment to add a few in, and in the
   ... case of textEmphasis I defined two subset features,
   -no-color and no-quoted-string.
   ... I also defined a -minimal designator that is the
   intersection of no-color and no-quoted-string subset
   ... designators. That's the first time I've defined an
   intersection; I suspect I'll be doing that for other
   ... complex features too, and it's something we may want to
   exploit elsewhere, including for TTML1
   ... features.
   ... I'll be adding some new features over the next few days.

   nigel: Great!

   glenn: I'd like to confirm with pal whether it would be useful
   or necessary to add feature designators
   ... to support IMSC semantics. We might want to codify
   restrictions defined in IMSC to allow us more
   ... easily to support IMSC 2.

   pal: Sure, let me add that to my to-do list.

   glenn: For IMSC 2 rather than IMSC 1, imagining you back-port
   restrictions from IMSC 1 into IMSC 2.

   pal: Got it!

   nigel: At some point we'll also want to generate tests for
   those features.

AOB

   nigel: First up, TPAC 2015 schedule.

   [21]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2015May/0030

   .html

     [21] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2015May/0030.html


   nigel: We've had confirmation that we'll meet on Thursday and
   Friday. Can I just check that this won't
   ... cause any difficulties?

   pal: Not for me

   glenn: Fine for me

   nigel: The next point is the request re pruning of content
   elements
   ... In ยง9.3.2 of TTML1:
   [22]http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml1/#semantics-region-layout-step-1

   ... The question is, if a div references one region and one of
   its descendant p elements another, is everything pruned, and if
   so,
   ... is that what we want?

     [22] http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml1/#semantics-region-layout-step-1


   glenn: Obviously that's not what we want. Similar to my
   comments before about walking up the tree,
   ... we shouldn't be pruning that content. I've given that some
   thought and implemented something,
   ... so I'll deal with it at the same time as the other issue we
   talked about. There's no question in my
   ... mind about what is desired. The language will need to be
   fixed.

   nigel: I don't think we should change the algorithm in TTML1,
   but we should at least add a 'watch out for this' note.

   glenn: We can change what we want if there's a mistake. I think
   there's a convincing case that the
   ... language that went into TTML1 was not intended and what was
   written was an error. So I don't think
   ... there's any problem with that. For completeness we would
   need to move to a future 3rd edition.

   nigel: Okay, thanks, let's look at the proposed changes when
   they're available.
   ... Next AOB is /TR Style Sheets
   ... If the Editors could respond to my email listing the survey
   questions then I will fill in the WBS
   ... with our collected answers.
   ... I'll prompt Silvia separately.

   <inserted> pal: My only feedback to the survey is IMSC 1 uses
   respec.js so that's pretty much it. There should be no impact
   on IMSC 1 if respec.js is updated with new templates.

   nigel: The last item is progress on the HTMLCue proposal.
   ... Andreas responded by email that he has no update and will
   push it more in the next 2 weeks.
   ... The only other thing to note is that next week we will use
   Webex for audio instead of Zakim,
   ... and still use IRC in the same way as now.

   tmichel: One thing is that to build the Present list into the
   minutes there's no connection between
   ... Webex and the agent therefore a best practice is to write
   present+ [name] on IRC when joining the
   ... call, to allow the agent to build the Present list.

   nigel: Oh, I've been doing that manually as scribe for ages,
   but happy for anyone else to do it.

   tmichel: If you call through a telephone or a computer you need
   to install a new module, and through
   ... the UI you can see the participants who have joined through
   Webex. If you just dial in then you get a
   ... meaningless name label, which isn't useful for the minutes.
   And it's impossible to paste the list into
   ... IRC. But at least you can mute/unmute directly on the tool
   and others can see your mute state.

   nigel: In that case, let's sign off with a fond farewell to
   zakim. Meet again same time next week. [adjourns meeting]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: glenn to add note to Issue 341 to reflect his
   current thinking [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-tt-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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Received on Thursday, 4 June 2015 15:17:06 UTC

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