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Minutes, June 26, 2008 telcon

From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:07:19 +1000
To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20080626120719.GA1669@arc.mcc.id.au>

http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html
or below as text:


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                   SVG Working Group Teleconference

26 Jun 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0162.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-irc

Attendees

   Present
   Regrets
          Andrew_Emmons, Chris_Lilley

   Chair
          Erik

   Scribe
          Cameron

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]SVG animate values format
         2. [6]SVG Tiny Schema
         3. [7]Resolving IRIs for resource documents in SVG Tiny 1.2
         4. [8]percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask content
         5. [9]Tiny 1.2 and Key Identifiers
         6. [10]Test suite
         7. [11]SVGt 1.2 Tests: Illegal separator in linking-frag-201
            and 202
         8. [12]XHTML Access module review
     * [13]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________



   <trackbot> Date: 26 June 2008

   <scribe> Scribe: Cameron

   <scribe> ScribeNick: heycam

   <ed>
   [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0051.html

     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0051.html

SVG animate values format

   ED: This is about trailing semicolons in the values="" attribute
   ... and whether you get an additional value if it ends with a ';'

   CM: I agree with Julien's assessment that his example should be
   invalid

   DS: Could there be a recovery behaviour here?

   <anthony>
   [15]http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-SMIL2-20051213/animation.html#adef
   -values

     [15] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-SMIL2-20051213/animation.html#adef-values

   CM: The grammar is defined by SMIL

   <ed>
   [16]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/animate.html#ValuesAttribute

     [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/animate.html#ValuesAttribute

   CM: is it by reference?

   AG: yes

   ED: we could override the definition in SVG

   CM: I wonder if there's content out there that uses this semicolon
   at the end of the list.

   <ed>
   [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0020.html

     [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0020.html

   ED: in that mail, andrew points out that the ikivo animator produces
   content with the semicolon
   ... and both ikivo and bitflash accept it

   AG: what does opera do?

   ED: not sure

   [18]http://mcc.id.au/temp/semicolon.svg

     [18] http://mcc.id.au/temp/semicolon.svg

   CM: Batik does accept the semicolon

   (discussion about empty string values, like for animating URLs)

   CM: you can validly have <a xlink:href=""/>

   DS: if we had an image, and we're animating the xlink:href and the
   last value was the empty string, that would mean that the last value
   is that the image goes blank

   CM: yeah

   DS: i'm curious where else SMIL is being used

   CM: maybe we can just force the use of '#' for same document
   references in values=""
   ... but we should test if empty strings work currently in UAs

   <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to test empty string values in animations
   [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2074 - Test empty string values in
   animations [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-03].

   ISSUE: Behaviour of animating values="a; b; c;" in existing UAs is
   at odds with the spec

   <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2010 - Behaviour of animating values=\"a;
   b; c;\" in existing UAs is at odds with the spec ; please complete
   additional details at
   [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2010/edit .

     [20] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2010/edit

   <ed>
   [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0002.html

     [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0002.html

SVG Tiny Schema

   DS: Chris looked at it a little, and thought maybe it was id vs
   xml:id
   ... but Chris says somewhere we introduced id in two different
   places
   ... I'm going to be talking next month (maybe before) to the Relax
   guys, I can ask them about this.

   ISSUE: SVG Tiny schema is broken

   <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2011 - SVG Tiny schema is broken ; please
   complete additional details at
   [22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2011/edit .

     [22] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2011/edit

   <shepazu> [23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2009

     [23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2009

   trackbot, close ISSUE-2011

   <trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, close
   ISSUE-2011'. Please refer to
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

   <scribe> ACTION: Doug to figure out why the SVG Tiny schema is
   broken (ISSUE-2009) [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2075 - Figure out why the SVG Tiny schema
   is broken (ISSUE-2009) [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-07-03].

   ED: reply to felix?

   DS: i'll investigate it, see if we can fix it, then reply to felix

Resolving IRIs for resource documents in SVG Tiny 1.2

   <ed>
   [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0033.html

     [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0033.html

   CM: last time we said push it off until we hear from andrew, since
   bitflash does the double network access already

   ED: we don't want to delay spec edits
   ... maybe we can contact someone else at bitflash

   <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to mail some BitFlash guys about ISSUE-2003
   [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2076 - Mail some BitFlash guys about
   ISSUE-2003 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-03].

percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask content

   <ed>
   [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0048.html

     [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0048.html

   ED: it might be confusing to some people that percentages are
   relative to the viewport, and not the bbox of the element it's used
   on
   ... otoh, if you use values like 0.1, then you get 10% of the object
   bbox

   CM: is it deliberate so that you can use viewport-relative and
   bbox-relative values in there?

   ED: don't know if it's deliberate, but it is confusing

   CM: i imagine there might be content out there that uses it

   ED: it would be nice to have a test to see if an implementation uses
   percentages as bbox-relative
   ... not difficult to change it, but wondering if content relies on
   it
   ... first step would be to try implementations
   ... don't know if it's useful to have the functionality of being
   able to have a percentage of the viewport
   ... and at the same time using objectBoundingBox coordinates

   <scribe> ACTION: Erik to test implementations for percentage values
   in clipPath, etc. [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2077 - Test implementations for percentage
   values in clipPath, etc. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-07-03].

   ISSUE: Percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask unintuitive

   <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2013 - Percentages in
   clipPath/pattern/filter/mask unintuitive ; please complete
   additional details at
   [30]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013/edit .

     [30] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013/edit

   <ed>
   [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0019.html

     [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0019.html

Tiny 1.2 and Key Identifiers

   ED: Is there a way of telling where a keyboard event comes from in
   the uDOM? I don't think so.
   ... There's no keyLocation in the tiny KeyboardEvent.

   <ed>
   [32]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/
   1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#events__KeyboardEvent

     [32] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#events__KeyboardEvent

   CM: is keyLocation safe in the current DOM3Key spec?

   DS: yes

   ED: we could add it

   DS: it is a subset intended for mobiles, where you only have one
   keypad

   ED: otoh that content might be viewed on different devices

   DS: if the content is constrained to the device (if it doesn't
   assume it can get the different locations) then it doesn't matter
   ... for uDOM in general, it would be better if we were to add it
   ... that would change the java bindings

   ED: i'd be tempted not to change it in tiny, and in full say that
   the full DOM3Key interface is required

   DS: does that resolve the entire issue?

   ED: not really, but part of it
   ... you'd be saying there's no way to find out where the is coming
   from, and that you have to rely on DOM 3 Events before being able to
   decide that
   ... you could always test if keyLocation is there, and use it if it
   is
   ... the modifier keys are missing as well, same thing
   ... is there any difference in lowercase a and uppercase a? is it
   the same key identifier?

   CM: you'd always get U+0041 i think
   ... and there's still textEvent yes?

   ED: yes
   ... so you can get the actual typed in string with that

   AG: in full we can say to support full DOM3Key

   CM: do mobile devices that the udom is targetted to have shift/ctrl
   keys anyway?

   ED: some devices do have shift-like keys

   DS: there's IME

   ED: mine does have a full(ish) keyboard, with a shift key
   ... and you can type upper and lowercase letters

   <ed>
   [33]http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-Keybo
   ardEvent

     [33] http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-KeyboardEvent

   AG: issue freeze?

   CM: you can probably keep a track of shift key state in script if
   you really needed to

   RESOLUTION: We won't add keyLocation and modifier key attributes to
   the uDOM KeyboardEvent, but we will require the full DOM3Key
   interface in 1.2 Full

   <scribe> ACTION: Doug to reply to Julien to say that we won't add
   keyLocation etc. to KeyboardEvent in the uDOM [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action05]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2078 - Reply to Julien to say that we
   won't add keyLocation etc. to KeyboardEvent in the uDOM [on Doug
   Schepers - due 2008-07-03].

Test suite

   ED: Has publication happened yet?

   DS: no

   ED: soon?

   DS: yes

   ED: we should track test case issues

   DS: why not in tracker?

   CM: there is a product in there for the test suite

   <ed>
   [35]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0023.html

     [35] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0023.html

SVGt 1.2 Tests: Illegal separator in linking-frag-201 and 202

   ED: This is using spaces in a URI, and the spec requires using
   commas without spaces

   CM: so escaped spaces (%20) aren't allowed

   DS: we could say that the fragment is URL encoded
   ... if i have a space in my URL now, in a browser, it uses a %20
   ... we could say if a space is part of a functional fragment then
   it's escaped

   CM: i don't know the intricacies of urls/uris/iris/leiris enough to
   know
   ... maybe we can fix the test case to use commas, and raise an issue
   for the general problem of spaces in there

   ED: i agree with kalle's comments on the test description

   DS: yes

   ED: so that should be changed

   <scribe> ACTION: Anthony to fix linking-frag-20[$1\47] and reply to
   Kalle [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action06]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2079 - Fix linking-frag-20[$1\47] and
   reply to Kalle [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-07-03].

   <ed>
   [37]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/
   1.2NG/publish/linking.html#IntroFragmentsViews

     [37] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/linking.html#IntroFragmentsViews

   ISSUE: The restriction on IRI fragments in view specs to disallow
   spaces may be overly restrictive

   <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2014 - The restriction on IRI fragments in
   view specs to disallow spaces may be overly restrictive ; please
   complete additional details at
   [38]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2014/edit .

     [38] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2014/edit

   <ed>
   [39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/014
   7.html

     [39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0147.html

XHTML Access module review

   <shepazu>
   [40]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/016
   1.html

     [40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0161.html

   DS: shouldn't take more than half an hour to read through

   ED: what is it for?

   DS: the idea is that there is an <access> element with a key=""
   attribute that is a character

   CM: this is for keyboard shortcuts?

   DS: yes
   ... right now we have the accesskey="" we got from SMIL, but that is
   known to be a problem
   ... you map the values of the <access> element to things in the DOM
   with targetid=""
   ... or you can use targetrole="", which will make the access key go
   to the element with that role
   ... you can have lists in these attributes, which will cause cycling
   through when you press the access key multiple times
   ... if you say activate="yes", then if the user presses the key, it
   will shift the focus to that element and activate it (e.g. if it's a
   link it will follow it)
   ... it'd be a good part of the role stuff we'll have in svg
   ... what if you wanted to describe a sequence of things that weren't
   in document order? e.g. when you hit F it goes to the first node,
   then hitting F goes to the second node, which may or may not be in
   document order

   ED: seems strange to be document order, and not order in the
   attribute
   ... has to be one key, not several keys? e.g. if you are used to
   emacs shortcuts you can't add those in addition to your regular
   keys?
   ... or modifier keys

   DS: you could have both P and Q mapped to the same element with
   multiple <access> elements

   ED: can't do multi-key-sequences either, e.g. M followed be E

   DS: an interesting example, not sure if it's a powerful use case

   ED: encourage you all to send comments

   DS: due date is already past, but someone asked for an extension so
   if we do them by next week it would be great

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Anthony to fix linking-frag-20[$1\47] and reply to
   Kalle [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to mail some BitFlash guys about ISSUE-2003
   [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to test empty string values in animations
   [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Doug to figure out why the SVG Tiny schema is broken
   (ISSUE-2009) [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Doug to reply to Julien to say that we won't add
   keyLocation etc. to KeyboardEvent in the uDOM [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: Erik to test implementations for percentage values in
   clipPath, etc. [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html#action04]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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     [48] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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Regrets: Andrew_Emmons Chris_Lilley
Agenda: [50]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJu
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Found Date: 26 Jun 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [51]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html
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     [51] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html

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-- 
Cameron McCormack ≝ http://mcc.id.au/
Received on Thursday, 26 June 2008 12:08:02 GMT

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