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Re: [SVG-IG] Re: HTML 5 Canvas spec (3D and SVG)

From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 18:51:16 -0300
To: Jeff Schiller <codedread@gmail.com>, <public-svg-ig@w3.org>
CC: "Porter, David A" <david.a.porter@boeing.com>, "Dailey, David P." <david.dailey@sru.edu>, Donald Doherty <donald.doherty@brainstage.com>
Message-ID: <C4EDC7A4.3EDBB%lrosenth@adobe.com>

Let's not forget U3D, which is the ECMA standard adopted by Adobe for
inclusion in PDF (and therefore ISO 32000).  While a binary standard, it has
more traction by 3D vendors than most others.

There are also non-visualization standards in the 3D space such as STEP...

Leonard


On 9/10/08 4:49 PM, "Jeff Schiller" <codedread@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Looking at Wikipedia [1], X3D and VRML were apparently developed by
> the web3D consortium, are ISO specs and have _some_ traction in the
> browser plugin space (though VRML has fallen out of favour).
> 
> Can someone familiar with the history/politics illuminate the
> relationship between the W3C and the Web3D Consortium?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jeff
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X3d
> 
> On 9/10/08, Donald Doherty <donald.doherty@brainstage.com> wrote:
>> 
>> The HTML 5 Canvas spec addressed an HTML shortcoming: no high quality 2D
>> graphics.
>> 
>> Others have now extended HTML 5 Canvas to address another HTML shortcoming:
>> no high quality 3D graphics (although I don't know that this is standard
>> yet).
>> 
>> What I'd like to see is for the SVG lack of high quality 3D graphics to be
>> addressed in a similar way. Maybe an official "SVG 3D Canvas" spec?
>> 
>> Don
>> 
>> On Sep 10, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Porter, David A wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Indeed, you are prescient about this Donald--there is interesting and
>> frustrating stuff out there ahead.
>> 
>> When we go beyond 2D to 3D, that brings up a welter of other mechanisms for
>> getting graphics stuff on somebody's display.  Here in Boeing of course we
>> are deeply involved in massive capabilities like CGM/WebCGM (not me
>> personally).  Obviously, way beyond what SVG ever intended to address, in
>> scope, size, depth.  This computer / web graphics arena such a vast field,
>> it's hard to narrow down opportunities to choose paths and work on them.
>> 
>> Seems like there is some distinguishing matrix of 2/3D graphics
>> characteristics, you almost need a Edward Tufte-like mind mapof them
>> floating out there in space, where  you could regard their various aspects
>> and figure out where the world is going, then flip it around and look at it
>> using a different lens.  Some of the axes might be things like simple vs.
>> complex, declarative vs. imperative, past-present-future (progressions or
>> versioning), open vs. proprietary, platforms it runs on, and so forth.  One
>> might observe the progression thru VML, to SVG, to future versions of it, or
>> the rise of integrated RIA graphics thingies like FLEX/Flash, as pieces of
>> this larger picture.  As it is, it's kind of hard to get oriented to the
>> many things that are on tap.
>> 
>> Apologies if I am rambling, but one might set out to articulate some sort of
>> positioning of SVG as it is now, or where it's going, in relation to those
>> other things, that *could* help someone get engaged.  It's a very
>> significant and useful standard (IMHO)!
>> 
>> David.A.Porter@Boeing.com
>> Distributed Server Integration, GG-GG-5581, homepage
>> http://grp-cno-dst-svr.web.boeing.com/
>> Boeing Information Technology, Bellevue Washington USA
>> ( phone 253-223-4732, other contact options at
>> http://card.web.boeing.com/WebCard.cfm?id=113185
>> Server Inventory links:
>> http://distributedserver.web.boeing.com/serverinventory/ServerInventoryLinks.
>> htm
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  ________________________________
>>  From: Donald Doherty
>> [mailto:donald.doherty@brainstage.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:37 AM
>> To: Dailey, David P.
>> Cc: public-svg-ig@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: HTML 5 Canvas spec [3D and SVG]
>> 
>> 
>> David,
>> 
>> 
>> Thank you for jumping in on this topic. I'm only jumping in now because I'm
>> so behind in my email...
>> 
>> 
>> HTML 5 Canvas brings up an SVG frustration for us. That is, 3D displays!
>> 
>> 
>> SVG in my opinion becomes very interesting in the context of Web
>> applications (as apposed to Web pages...I mean applications like Google
>> spreadsheets, docs, etc.). However, applications - and especially those in
>> life sciences and medicine - often demand 3D graphics.
>> 
>> 
>> A standard means for displaying high-quality 3D images would go a long way
>> towards making SVG irresistible!
>> 
>> 
>> Don
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Donald Doherty, Ph.D.
>> Founder and Chief Science Officer
>> Brainstage, Inc.
>> www.brainstage.com
>> donald.doherty@brainstage.com
>> 412-683-1410
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 3, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Dailey, David P. wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi David:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> David Porter wrote:
>> 
>> ".[Š]Is it a threat or complement
>> to one's SVG work?  [Š] 'A 3D Exploration of the HTML Canvas Element Greg
>> Travis, DevX.com' "
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I thought someone else might make a stab at this but given that they didn't
>> I guess I will.  Maybe I'll say something wrong just on purpose to see if we
>> can persuade lurkers to join some of the conversations.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> When I found out about <canvas> I thought it was someone's attempt to
>> sabotage SVG. The Apple folks who promoted it tried to convince others that
>> it was something entirely different (using lots of fancy jargon to make
>> their point). I remained very skeptical.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Then someone (like maybe Anne from Opera) wrote something in the HTML5
>> discussions that basically said  hey mellow out  they both do useful
>> stuff. So I have mellowed a bit and concede the point. <canvas> is likely to
>> be a really fast way of blittiing pixels onto the screen and playing with
>> them. Opera and maybe others have been playing with 3D canvas operations 
>> if only we could put an <svg> into a <canvas> so that we could read the
>> pixels back from our <svg> or implement the get Pixel value and put Pixel
>> value operations from <canvas> then we'd have something.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I think the experience with Photoshop and Illustrator indicates that it's a
>> lot easier to put pixel stuff into a vector environment than to do it the
>> other way around.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> My only concern remaining was that HTML5 would adopt <canvas> and ignore
>> <svg> in such a way that implementers might be able to continue to ignore
>> SVG. Doug seems optimistic that that won't happen, and he knows how this
>> stuff works, so I think we can relax a bit more now.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In the long run, with the fact that Google now supports (some) SVG in
>> Chrome, it may soon be a moot point.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I would be delighted if some one could put some really simple and some
>> really cool demos in the SVG-wiki that show a) how to use canvas and b) how
>> to combine the use of canvas with that of svg. The symbiosis could be very
>> cool!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> David
>> 
>> 
> 

-- 
Leonard Rosenthol
PDF Standards Architect
Adobe Systems Incorporated
Received on Wednesday, 10 September 2008 21:57:10 GMT

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