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Re: [SVG-IG] Re: HTML 5 Canvas spec (3D and SVG)

From: Jeff Schiller <codedread@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:49:40 -0500
Message-ID: <da131fde0809101249n7644838em768c47cb92785e4e@mail.gmail.com>
To: public-svg-ig@w3.org
Cc: "Porter, David A" <david.a.porter@boeing.com>, "Dailey, David P." <david.dailey@sru.edu>, "Donald Doherty" <donald.doherty@brainstage.com>

Looking at Wikipedia [1], X3D and VRML were apparently developed by
the web3D consortium, are ISO specs and have _some_ traction in the
browser plugin space (though VRML has fallen out of favour).

Can someone familiar with the history/politics illuminate the
relationship between the W3C and the Web3D Consortium?

Thanks,
Jeff

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X3d

On 9/10/08, Donald Doherty <donald.doherty@brainstage.com> wrote:
>
> The HTML 5 Canvas spec addressed an HTML shortcoming: no high quality 2D
> graphics.
>
> Others have now extended HTML 5 Canvas to address another HTML shortcoming:
> no high quality 3D graphics (although I don't know that this is standard
> yet).
>
> What I'd like to see is for the SVG lack of high quality 3D graphics to be
> addressed in a similar way. Maybe an official "SVG 3D Canvas" spec?
>
> Don
>
> On Sep 10, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Porter, David A wrote:
>
>
> Indeed, you are prescient about this Donald--there is interesting and
> frustrating stuff out there ahead.
>
> When we go beyond 2D to 3D, that brings up a welter of other mechanisms for
> getting graphics stuff on somebody's display.  Here in Boeing of course we
> are deeply involved in massive capabilities like CGM/WebCGM (not me
> personally).  Obviously, way beyond what SVG ever intended to address, in
> scope, size, depth.  This computer / web graphics arena such a vast field,
> it's hard to narrow down opportunities to choose paths and work on them.
>
> Seems like there is some distinguishing matrix of 2/3D graphics
> characteristics, you almost need a Edward Tufte-like mind mapof them
> floating out there in space, where  you could regard their various aspects
> and figure out where the world is going, then flip it around and look at it
> using a different lens.  Some of the axes might be things like simple vs.
> complex, declarative vs. imperative, past-present-future (progressions or
> versioning), open vs. proprietary, platforms it runs on, and so forth.  One
> might observe the progression thru VML, to SVG, to future versions of it, or
> the rise of integrated RIA graphics thingies like FLEX/Flash, as pieces of
> this larger picture.  As it is, it's kind of hard to get oriented to the
> many things that are on tap.
>
> Apologies if I am rambling, but one might set out to articulate some sort of
> positioning of SVG as it is now, or where it's going, in relation to those
> other things, that *could* help someone get engaged.  It's a very
> significant and useful standard (IMHO)!
>
> David.A.Porter@Boeing.com
> Distributed Server Integration, GG-GG-5581, homepage
> http://grp-cno-dst-svr.web.boeing.com/
> Boeing Information Technology, Bellevue Washington USA
> ( phone 253-223-4732, other contact options at
> http://card.web.boeing.com/WebCard.cfm?id=113185
> Server Inventory links:
> http://distributedserver.web.boeing.com/serverinventory/ServerInventoryLinks.htm
>
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  From: Donald Doherty
> [mailto:donald.doherty@brainstage.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:37 AM
> To: Dailey, David P.
> Cc: public-svg-ig@w3.org
> Subject: Re: HTML 5 Canvas spec [3D and SVG]
>
>
> David,
>
>
> Thank you for jumping in on this topic. I'm only jumping in now because I'm
> so behind in my email...
>
>
> HTML 5 Canvas brings up an SVG frustration for us. That is, 3D displays!
>
>
> SVG in my opinion becomes very interesting in the context of Web
> applications (as apposed to Web pages...I mean applications like Google
> spreadsheets, docs, etc.). However, applications - and especially those in
> life sciences and medicine - often demand 3D graphics.
>
>
> A standard means for displaying high-quality 3D images would go a long way
> towards making SVG irresistible!
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Donald Doherty, Ph.D.
> Founder and Chief Science Officer
> Brainstage, Inc.
> www.brainstage.com
> donald.doherty@brainstage.com
> 412-683-1410
>
>
>
> On Sep 3, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Dailey, David P. wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi David:
>
>
>
> David Porter wrote:
>
> ".[]Is it a threat or complement
> to one's SVG work?  [] 'A 3D Exploration of the HTML Canvas Element Greg
> Travis, DevX.com' "
>
>
>
>
> I thought someone else might make a stab at this but given that they didn't
> I guess I will.  Maybe I'll say something wrong just on purpose to see if we
> can persuade lurkers to join some of the conversations.
>
>
>
> When I found out about <canvas> I thought it was someone's attempt to
> sabotage SVG. The Apple folks who promoted it tried to convince others that
> it was something entirely different (using lots of fancy jargon to make
> their point). I remained very skeptical.
>
>
>
> Then someone (like maybe Anne from Opera) wrote something in the HTML5
> discussions that basically said  hey mellow out  they both do useful
> stuff. So I have mellowed a bit and concede the point. <canvas> is likely to
> be a really fast way of blittiing pixels onto the screen and playing with
> them. Opera and maybe others have been playing with 3D canvas operations 
> if only we could put an <svg> into a <canvas> so that we could read the
> pixels back from our <svg> or implement the get Pixel value and put Pixel
> value operations from <canvas> then we'd have something.
>
>
>
> I think the experience with Photoshop and Illustrator indicates that it's a
> lot easier to put pixel stuff into a vector environment than to do it the
> other way around.
>
>
>
> My only concern remaining was that HTML5 would adopt <canvas> and ignore
> <svg> in such a way that implementers might be able to continue to ignore
> SVG. Doug seems optimistic that that won't happen, and he knows how this
> stuff works, so I think we can relax a bit more now.
>
>
>
> In the long run, with the fact that Google now supports (some) SVG in
> Chrome, it may soon be a moot point.
>
>
>
> I would be delighted if some one could put some really simple and some
> really cool demos in the SVG-wiki that show a) how to use canvas and b) how
> to combine the use of canvas with that of svg. The symbiosis could be very
> cool!
>
>
>
> David
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 10 September 2008 19:50:19 GMT

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