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[SVG-IG] Re: HTML 5 Canvas spec (3D and SVG)

From: Donald Doherty <donald.doherty@brainstage.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:40:35 -0400
Cc: "Dailey, David P." <david.dailey@sru.edu>, <public-svg-ig@w3.org>
Message-Id: <7014402A-F7FE-4F5D-8EEE-AFB1AF7213DF@brainstage.com>
To: "Porter, David A" <david.a.porter@boeing.com>
The HTML 5 Canvas spec addressed an HTML shortcoming: no high quality  
2D graphics.

Others have now extended HTML 5 Canvas to address another HTML  
shortcoming: no high quality 3D graphics (although I don't know that  
this is standard yet).

What I'd like to see is for the SVG lack of high quality 3D graphics  
to be addressed in a similar way. Maybe an official "SVG 3D Canvas"  
spec?

Don

On Sep 10, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Porter, David A wrote:

> Indeed, you are prescient about this Donald--there is interesting  
> and frustrating stuff out there ahead.
>
> When we go beyond 2D to 3D, that brings up a welter of other  
> mechanisms for getting graphics stuff on somebody's display.  Here  
> in Boeing of course we are deeply involved in massive capabilities  
> like CGM/WebCGM (not me personally).  Obviously, way beyond what SVG  
> ever intended to address, in scope, size, depth.  This computer /  
> web graphics arena such a vast field, it's hard to narrow down  
> opportunities to choose paths and work on them.
>
> Seems like there is some distinguishing matrix of 2/3D graphics  
> characteristics, you almost need a Edward Tufte-like mind mapof them  
> floating out there in space, where  you could regard their various  
> aspects and figure out where the world is going, then flip it around  
> and look at it using a different lens.  Some of the axes might be  
> things like simple vs. complex, declarative vs. imperative, past- 
> present-future (progressions or versioning), open vs. proprietary,  
> platforms it runs on, and so forth.  One might observe the  
> progression thru VML, to SVG, to future versions of it, or the rise  
> of integrated RIA graphics thingies like FLEX/Flash, as pieces of  
> this larger picture.  As it is, it's kind of hard to get oriented to  
> the many things that are on tap.
>
> Apologies if I am rambling, but one might set out to articulate some  
> sort of positioning of SVG as it is now, or where it's going, in  
> relation to those other things, that *could* help someone get  
> engaged.  It's a very significant and useful standard (IMHO)!
>
> David.A.Porter@Boeing.com
> Distributed Server Integration, GG-GG-5581, homepage http://grp-cno-dst-svr.web.boeing.com/
> Boeing Information Technology, Bellevue Washington USA
> ( phone 253-223-4732, other contact options at http://card.web.boeing.com/WebCard.cfm?id=113185
> Server Inventory links: http://distributedserver.web.boeing.com/serverinventory/ServerInventoryLinks.htm
>
>
> From: Donald Doherty [mailto:donald.doherty@brainstage.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:37 AM
> To: Dailey, David P.
> Cc: public-svg-ig@w3.org
> Subject: Re: HTML 5 Canvas spec [3D and SVG]
>
> David,
>
> Thank you for jumping in on this topic. I'm only jumping in now  
> because I'm so behind in my email...
>
> HTML 5 Canvas brings up an SVG frustration for us. That is, 3D  
> displays!
>
> SVG in my opinion becomes very interesting in the context of Web  
> applications (as apposed to Web pages...I mean applications like  
> Google spreadsheets, docs, etc.). However, applications - and  
> especially those in life sciences and medicine - often demand 3D  
> graphics.
>
> A standard means for displaying high-quality 3D images would go a  
> long way towards making SVG irresistible!
>
> Don
>
> Donald Doherty, Ph.D.
> Founder and Chief Science Officer
> Brainstage, Inc.
> www.brainstage.com
> donald.doherty@brainstage.com
> 412-683-1410
>
>
> On Sep 3, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Dailey, David P. wrote:
>
>> Hi David:
>>
>>
>> David Porter wrote:
>>
>>
>> “.[…]Is it a threat or complement
>> to one's SVG work?  […] ‘A 3D Exploration of the HTML Canvas  
>> Element Greg Travis, DevX.com’ “
>>
>>
>> I thought someone else might make a stab at this but given that  
>> they didn’t I guess I will.  Maybe I’ll say something wrong just on  
>> purpose to see if we can persuade lurkers to join some of the  
>> conversations.
>>
>>
>> When I found out about <canvas> I thought it was someone’s attempt  
>> to sabotage SVG. The Apple folks who promoted it tried to convince  
>> others that it was something entirely different (using lots of  
>> fancy jargon to make their point). I remained very skeptical.
>>
>>
>> Then someone (like maybe Anne from Opera) wrote something in the  
>> HTML5 discussions that basically said – hey mellow out – they both  
>> do useful stuff. So I have mellowed a bit and concede the point.  
>> <canvas> is likely to be a really fast way of blittiing pixels onto  
>> the screen and playing with them. Opera and maybe others have been  
>> playing with 3D canvas operations – if only we could put an <svg>  
>> into a <canvas> so that we could read the pixels back from our  
>> <svg> or implement the get Pixel value and put Pixel value  
>> operations from <canvas> then we’d have something.
>>
>>
>> I think the experience with Photoshop and Illustrator indicates  
>> that it’s a lot easier to put pixel stuff into a vector environment  
>> than to do it the other way around.
>>
>>
>> My only concern remaining was that HTML5 would adopt <canvas> and  
>> ignore <svg> in such a way that implementers might be able to  
>> continue to ignore SVG. Doug seems optimistic that that won’t  
>> happen, and he knows how this stuff works, so I think we can relax  
>> a bit more now.
>>
>>
>> In the long run, with the fact that Google now supports (some) SVG  
>> in Chrome, it may soon be a moot point.
>>
>>
>> I would be delighted if some one could put some really simple and  
>> some really cool demos in the SVG-wiki that show a) how to use  
>> canvas and b) how to combine the use of canvas with that of svg.  
>> The symbiosis could be very cool!
>>
>>
>> David
>>
>
Received on Wednesday, 10 September 2008 19:30:26 GMT

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