RIF WG TeleCon Meeting Minutes

30 May 2006

See also: IRC log


Alex Kozlenkov, Allen Ginsberg, Axel Polleres, Chris Welty, Christian de Sainte Marie, Dan Conolly, Darko Anicic, Dave Reynolds, David Hirtle, Deborah Nichols, Frank McCabe, Franšois Bry, Gary Hallmark, Harold Boley, Hassan A´t-Kaci, Igor Mozetic, John Hall, Jos de Bruijn, Jos de Roo, Leora Morgenstern, Mala Mehrotra, Markus Kr÷tzsch, Michael Kifer, Mike Dean, Paul Vincent, Paula-Lavinia Patranjan, Philippe Bonnard, Said Tabet, Sandro Hawke, Stan Devitt, Stella Mitchell
Peter Patel-Schneider, Ian Horrocks, Michael Sintek, Evan Wallace, Ed Barkmeyer
Christian de Sainte Marie
Hassan A´t-Kaci




Pre-meeting Discussion (no designated scribe)

<DanC> I saw this in the minutes last week: "Chris: The chairs have polled the group about the Extensible Design: it should now be used as a working syntax." Is that a WG decision?

<ChrisW> my mind is a blank, DanC

<DanC> PFPS since sent a different proposal, and your response suggested it's in order, which suggests that's _not_ a WG decision.

<DanC> I'd like to see more discussion of how the proposals meet the requirements (and none at all about the meaning of 'unitary' ;-)

<ChrisW> yes, we need requirements, that will be our focus today and at the f2f

<ChrisW> We did not make a decision to use the syntax of the extensible design in RIF, just to begin comparing it to other systems

<DanC> so you did make a decision?

<ChrisW> your insistence on the word "decision" has me being cautious, perhaps overly so

<ChrisW> the context of the "poll" was specifically that it was not a vote

<DanC> that makes sense...

<ChrisW> about whether to accept the extensible design

<ChrisW> we just wanted people to start using it as a strawman to see what (if anything is needed)

<DanC> I learned the word "decision" from Jon Bosak; I joined some XML WG telcons after not attending them for months, and tried to discuss some topics, and they said "we've already made that Decision; unless you have new information, it's out of order to discuss it." It's an alternative to what Bosak observed as "last-man-standing consensus" in the IETF.

<ChrisW> a useful idea

<DanC> formally, W3C process only requires that a WG make 1 decision: to go to last call.

<DanC> but in my experience, it's useful to make a WG decision around each requirement and to close each issue.

<ChrisW> re: requirements, that is the plan


<csma> scribenick: Hassan

<AxelPolleres> I could have scribed... sorry, some seconds late

No weekly meeting next week because of F2F3

<DanC> draft minutes 23 May

<DanC> how about noting the correction in today's minutes, right here?

Christian finds last week's minutes ambiguous about "missing features of the XML elements of RifRaf"

CSMA wishes to clarifies the minutes regarding this before accepting them

Amendments to the minutes?

None voiced!

F2F 3

Action reviews for F2F3?

<DanC> er... so is that done? "Check hotel reservation for F2F3"

Update on F2F3 - review the draft agenda for the meeting

<SaidTabet> Christian: will there be a telecon access for those of us who are not traveling to the F2F?

<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask that RAF and DesignConstraints sessions be merged

CSMA: ask for feedback on the contents of the F2F3 agenda

DanC: suggests merging RIFRAF session and Requirements session
... haven't seen group discussion of RIFRAF

Sandro: must distinguish requirements for systems and those specific for interchange

<Harold> a+

ChrisW: RIFRAF is a set of criteria to distinguish among rule systems to be classified

CSMA: Need to specify which part of RIFRAF is specific to interchange and what is not

<AxelPolleres> might be the wrong line

<AxelPolleres> I type it:

<ChrisW> ok, axel, hold on a moment

Harold: By themselves, the RAF's discriminators only span dimensions in which feature values can range, but don't suggest which values to fix in any of these dimensions. Narrowing down those ranges (possibly to specific values) would amount to requirements.

<AxelPolleres> small issue: i'd kindly ask th chairs to answer my technical question on phone connectivity for f2f3.

<DanC> to clarify, "haven't seen group discussion of RIFRAF", I have seen very nice evaluation of systems vs. RIFRAF, but the RIFRAF itself seems to be treated just as fact, not as a list of candidate requirements.

<AxelPolleres> I typed the issue on the IRC.

DanC: RAF seems to be "facts" - there has not been a discussion about whether, e.g., "function free" is relevant

<JosDeRoo> Axel, you probably took my name while doing Zakim, P37 is me

<JosDeRoo> ?

<DanC> (ok, I hear that that the RIFRAF stuff _is_ a list of candidate requirements, in a way. good to know.)

Gary Hall: Need to see better adequacy of the classification criteria to special cases like PR's

<AxelPolleres> My issue again [F2F3]: I wrote a mail to the chairs concerning phone connectivity at F2F3, which I would kindly ask them to answer. Thanks (no need to discuss this in the phone conf)

CSMA: need to relate Requirements with RIFRAF

<AxelPolleres> I will try again to find out the number. let's discuss further per mail

Sandro: regarding F2F3 connectivity and dialups - need to find a means (bring VOIP box?)

<AxelPolleres> We will find a solution.

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F3

<AxelPolleres> Paula and me.

CSMA: any more comments on F2F3 agenda?

F2F 4

None - move on to F2F4

<PaulaP> Contact for F2F3: Axel Polleres and Paula-Lavinia Patranjan

PFPS (not attending today) sent email web-registration information using credit cards

CSMA: any more comments on F2F4 meeting?

ChrisW: let's move on


CSMA: next item on the agenda: liaisons?

Action on Jos de Roo?

Jos de Roo: finished his action regarding DAWG

Need a liaision for SPARQL WG (since Jos de Roo is quitting his participation)

DanC: Do we need such a close relationship?

CSMA: close the action - we'll decide what we need when the time comes

Liaison with Common Logic?

Nothing to report...

Liaison with PRR - Paul Vincent?

PaulVincent: ok to give an update on PRR to this WG

Liaison with SBVR?

John: Telcon tomorrow - will report what transpires



Use Cases and Requirements

Next topic: UCR

Actions re: UCR? two for CSMA (one continued, one done)

<PaulaP> DONE

Action of Frank and Paula: merging requirement graph (done)

CSMA: Anyone to elaborate a new UC for RDF Data (Axel & Dave)?

<AxelPolleres> I didn't volunteer for the XML use case?!?

<AxelPolleres> I put this use case online.

<DaveReynolds> Is this the rewrite of the integration use case?

<FrankMcCabe> I see 40 mins scheduled for a discussion on requirements

<DavidHirtle> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Candidate_Use_Cases_for_2nd_Draft/PublicationAlternative

CSMA: yes Dave - it is a rewrite of the integration UC

<AxelPolleres> yes.

CSF Goals and Requirements from Frank and Paula

CSMA: move on to the Req. discussion

DaveReynolds: What is the deadline for doing this?

CSMA: no deadline - just wanted to know if the UC can be discussed at the F2F3
... because of low attendance at F2F3, please review all relevant documents and send comments before F2F3 especially if not attending

Leora: How come FOL has been eliminated from the Reqs?

ChrisW: Nothing has been eliminated

Leora: has questions about several issues regarding what FOL and what "soundness" means for this WG

<johnhall> "Substantial proportion of FOL" ia also a question from SBVR team

Sandro: Christian please clarify about this issue about FOL

Paula: FOL req not in diagram, but is in the Wiki

Leora: is concerned about FOL being not deemed as important as it should for RIF
... will explore the issue by email

<PaulaP> it was in an older version of the document

Frank: I don't see "substantial portion of FOL" - but see support for FOL - in the diagram

<ChrisW> we are taling about:

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements

Frank: i wish to discuss the diagram for CSFs in order to explain it to the rest of the WG

<PaulaP> the text under the DCs diagram is under development/refinement at moment

<DavidHirtle> (I think everyone doesn't realize this -- the diagram is really the up to date thing)

Frank: need to find better formulations

Frank: wish to raise a few issues that need to be discussed: eg, Markups

<PaulaP> it is shortly explained in the text

Frank: procedural attachments?

<DaveReynolds> The text on "meta-language" doesn't match what Frank just said

<PaulaP> but we are going to refine it in the next days

<DaveReynolds> XML -> extensibilty is different from "XML support" -> extensibility

Frank: this diagram must be assessed for completeness, and commented with additional text

<DanC> "support XML" seems to be in a requirement box, but I don't understand how to test it. hm.

Frank: the diagram should be read as an index into the text

<LeoraMorgenstern> I'm glad that FOL has not been ruled out

Frank: to Leora: we have no intentions to rule out FOL as a Req.

<LeoraMorgenstern> Nevertheless, I think it's important to explicitly include FOL

<LeoraMorgenstern> as a requirement

PaulaP: There are open issues that need to be settled

<PaulaP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements

<FrankMcCabe> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements

CSMA: Not in my version!

<johnhall> click on the link in the agenda

CSMA: Oh now I see it! :-)

<DanC> (so is http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Design_Constraints still used?)

<PaulaP> yes it is

CSMA: the list of Reqs to be discussed at the F2F3 is what will be posted before this Friday night

<ChrisW> Please see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html

Sandro: shall we prioritize them by championing them?

ChrisW: The wiki pages accommodate "championing" the Reqs

<sandro> (The term "champion" is lousy. "support" is better.)

<LeoraMorgenstern> With respect to the list of open requirements, it seems to me that requiring FOL should not be in the same bucket as requiring likelihood and probabilities.

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Design_Constraints

<ChrisW> +1 to getting rid of older pages

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html

Sandro: need to clean up all obsolete pages

ChrisW: I sent a list of pages that need to be reconciled

CSMA: Frank's and Paula's page should be the reference
... ACTION on Frank and Paula to do the cleanup

<sandro> ACTION: Frank to Consolidate all the data from the four pages linked from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html on to http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Requirements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/30-rif-minutes.html#action01]

Frank: A design constraint is on the solution, a requirement is on the problem

<DanC> (huh? isn't requirement pretty much a synonym for design constraint? i.e. something you can test a design against. Can we please try discussing a requirement/constraint in practice?)

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR

DavidHirtle: Are Goals and Reqs to be put in distinct sections in the UCR document?

CSMA: the structure of the UCR document will be discussed at the F2F3

<sandro> Sandro: Frank and Paula should go ahead and edit the wiki, starting at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR to make their work nicely readable

FrankMcCabe: UCR document : use cases, then goals and reqs, then design constraints

<DanC> (yeah, whatever csma said, somebody pls write it down. or perhaps Chris already did in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html ? )

<ChrisW> ACTION: paula and frank to update GCR document wrt previous work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/30-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<ChrisW> (to be completed by next tuesday)

Leora: having RIF handle probabilities is in a different "bucket" than FOL

Leora: ... FOL is much more basic

Leora: ... at least to RIF

CSMA: open issues is just a heap right now

CSMA: ... of "todo" items

Frank: will probably have the work done today or tomorrow

Frank: ...so people will have time to respond

Frank: ... so Friday is the deadline

<sandro> Proposed: Editors Draft of UCR/Requirements to be frozen on Friday

<ChrisW> ... for the GCR document

CSMA: must include the most recent posting (done before Friday)

FrankMcCabe: the document cannot be frozen on Friday

Sandro: why not Monday?

<DanC> (it sounds to me like 2 round-trips is infeasible. I'd suggest just one. The editor's do their best in the next day or so and then freeze it, without setting any expectation that they'll address comments.)

<josb> Monday would be helpful

CSMA: Tuesday noon?

<PaulaP> +1 to ChrisW

<GaryHallmark> 1 for friday freeze

<DanC> I think freezing Friday is workable.

ChrisW: we DO NOT need and extra round - please send comments right away, and we'll review Friday's version at the F2F3

<josb> Friday would be better

<DavidHirtle> (keyboard problem, Gary?)

<GaryHallmark> me thinks my plus sign is gone!

<DanC> (sounds to me like the plan Chris laid out in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html is OK)

CSMA: move to RIFRAF topic

Harold: Action on explaining the RAF criteria (DONE)

Sandro: what are our priorities for this call's agenda?

<ChrisW> Harold action done: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0235.html

Sandro: we should discuss some of the requirement even if this meeting is extended

<hak> -1

<Francois> -1

Sandro: anyone having prepared anything to step forth?

<DanC> in the agenda are "Discussion of Reactive Rules requirement" and "Discussion of OWL KBs requirement"

Sandro: now is the good time to bring up what you care about

ChrisW: extend this call by 30mins for one requirement discussion?

<LeoraMorgenstern> Right ... I thought in the agenda the 2 requirements up for discussion did *not* include FOL.

<MichaelKifer> -1

<LeoraMorgenstern> But sure, I am happy to discuss FOL.

<josb> -1

<AlexKozlenkov> -1

<LeoraMorgenstern> But no one else is ...

<AlexKozlenkov> cannot discuss now even though it is important

<Francois> this does not look like many agreeing...

<hak> Sandro: hope everyone will be ready for a productive discussion

<Francois> bye. Sorry, i cannot stay longer...

Technical Design

CSMA: Actions on RIF/RAF criteria before F2F3?

CSMA: either (1) a new version of the RIF/RAF or (2) more classification of systems done

Harold: some amendments are possible, but not easy to modify the schema without breaking some instances

<DanC> we started formalizing the evaluations in DAWG, fyi... we didn't ever exploit the data, so it rotted... I'll find a pointer...

CSMA: actions on technical design

<AxelPolleres> continued, will try to send some mail by Friday.

<DanC> design eval matrix in RDF and N3

CSMA: any last item?

CSMA: proposes to adjourn

<DanC> ChrisW, sorry for taking group time on stuff that was already covered.

<PaulaP> bye

<Darko> -Darko

<PaulV> bye

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Frank to Consolidate all the data from the four pages linked from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0254.html on to http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Requirements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/30-rif-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: paula and frank to update GCR document wrt previous work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/30-rif-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]