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meeting record: 2009-01-08 RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:25:02 -0500
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090108122317.05526788@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org

The record of today's RDFa Task Force telecon is now available:

  http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html

A text snapshot follows.

----

                      RDF in XHTML 1.0 Task Force

08 Jan 2009

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0022.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous 2008-12-18

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Ralph Swick, Michael Hausenblas, Manu Sporny, Shane McCarron,
          Ben Adida

   Regrets
   Chair
          Ben Adida

   Scribe
          Manu Sporny

Contents

     * Topics
         1. RDFa NS URL
         2. Action Items
         3. Test Cases
         4. comment from december about test suite:
         5. keyword bundles and HTML4-compatible RDFa
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________

RDFa NS URL

   <ShaneM> we do not use that namespac

   <ShaneM> it is pointed to from the xhtml namespace document

   Ralph: It is up there, somewhere - the XHTML namespace document
   points to it.
   ... Where is [11]http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa/ used?

     [11] http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa/

   ShaneM: It shouldn't be circulating, nothing should point to it.

   <ShaneM> [12]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/

     [12] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/

   <benadida> [13]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/Overview.xhtml

     [13] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/Overview.xhtml

   <benadida> (2 days younger)

   <benadida> [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt

   ShaneM: Ralph/Steven or I will fix this.
   ... The contents of both those documents should be exactly the same.

   <ShaneM> ACTION: fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded
   in [15]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

Action Items

   <benadida> action items -->
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

   ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on
   HEAD and BODY [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc] [CONTINUES]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc

   ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of
   slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [CONTINUES]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with
   screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI
   is set up. [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [CONTINUES]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece
   [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
   [CONTINUES]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan.
   [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [CONTINUES]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [CONTINUES]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [CONTINUES]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [CONTINUES]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
   in [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [CONTINUES]

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   <mhausenblas> [28]http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Microformats_in_RDF

     [28] http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Microformats_in_RDF

   Manu:2 parts
   ... part 2 is "If I've already setup my page to use hCard, how do I
   switch to RDFa?"

   Michael: split it into two parts (how and differences)

   Manu: Perhaps we need something that shows general differences
   between uF and RDFa, and then gives specific examples.

   ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [CONTINUES]

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

Test Cases

   <msporny> [30]public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0016.html Test Case
   #121: "[prefix:]" CURIE format is valid

     [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0016.html

   Manu: the issue tested here is with suffix-less CURIEs, e.g.
   "example:"
   ... CURIE still expands, empty-string as suffix.

   <Ralph> +1

   <mhausenblas> +1

   <ShaneM> +1

   RESOLUTION: test case 121 suffix-less CURIE approved

   <msporny>
   [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009J
   an/0017.html Test Case #122: "[:]" CURIE format is valid

     [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0017.html

   <mhausenblas> +1

   <Ralph> +1

   <benadida> +1

   <ShaneM> +1

   <markbirbeck> +1

   <msporny> +1

   RESOLUTION: test case 122 prefix and suffix-less CURIE [:] approved

   <msporny> [32]public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0018.html Test Case
   #123: "[]" is a valid safe CURIE

     [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0018.html

   <mhausenblas> [33]public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0026.html

     [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0026.html

   <msporny> about="[foo]"

   Manu: the current consensus is that the subject is
   [34]http://example.org/

     [34] http://example.org/

   <msporny> about="[]"

   Manu: "[foo]" is an invalid CURIE, therefore so should be the empty
   string
   ... as neither is in the reserved (XHTML) list

   <msporny> # the mapping to use when there is no prefix is not
   defined, which effectively prohibits the use of CURIEs that do not
   contain a colon;

   Ben: did we define CURIES to require a prefix in RDFa?

   Mark: yes
   ... wasn't my preference, but it was a long discussion

   Ben: considering consistency w.r.t. reserved words
   ... this is the first instance where an invalid value actually
   changes the structure

   Mark: and Ivan pointed out the same thing occurs with @about="[foo]"

   Shane: right; @about="[foo]" should not change the subject

   Ben: but the presence of @rel alters the graph structure even if the
   CURIE is not valid
   ... however in this case it's acting as if @about was not present
   ... however, since @about just changes the subject and doesn't by
   itself generates triples, maybe this is OK

   Mark: it's clear that this is the current spec. We could discuss
   whether this is the most desireable choice.

   Ben: so if it's not a valid CURIE value, the behavior is as if
   @about were not there

   Mark: the alternative discussed was to assume the invalid CURIE was
   in the local document namespace
   ... and we liked that less

   Ben: the discussion is about the subject; some triple has to be
   generated, and the spec is clear

   Mark: however, as you note @rel="[foo]" does do some work

   Ben: rephrasing, what is the alternative when an invalid CURIE is
   found?
   ... it would seem wrong to drop the triple entirely
   ... whereas it's more reasonable to drop the triple in @rel="[foo]"
   ... so I don't see a better alternative for @about="[foo]" without
   major changes to CURIE
   ... I'm satisfied with this conclusion

   Mark: the test case seems to be unnecessarily nested

   Manu: yeah, probably; it went through several iterations

   Mark: the middle DIV could probably be dropped
   ... you only need the first one

   Manu: yeah, it appears the <div about="[35]http://example.org/">
   could be dropped
   ... the correct SPARQL should be ...

     [35] http://example.org/

   Shane: do you agree, Mark, that the same rules apply to @resource,
   @href, @src?

   Ben: only @resource uses SafeCURIE

   <msporny> Here's the updated case:

   Shane: assuming that it is possible to create an illegal URI then
   the general rule would hold that an illegal URI is ignored

   Mark: yeah

   Shane: @href and @src?

   <msporny> ---------------------Test Case 123
   XHTML--------------------------

   <msporny> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

   <msporny> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"

   <msporny> "[36]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd">

     [36] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd

   <msporny> <html xmlns="[37]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"

     [37] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml

   <msporny> xmlns:dc="[38]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">

     [38] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/

   <msporny> <head>

   <msporny> <title>Test Case 0123</title>

   <msporny> </head>

   <msporny> <body>

   <msporny> <p about="[39]http://example.org/">

     [39] http://example.org/

   <msporny> <span about="[]" property="dc:title">Test Case 0123</span>

   <msporny> checks to make sure RDFa processors resolve the empty

   <msporny> CURIE correctly.

   <msporny> <div resource="[]">

   <msporny> <span property="dc:contributor">Shane McCarron</span>

   <msporny> contributed to this test.

   <msporny> </div>

   <msporny> </p>

   <msporny> </body>

   <msporny> </html>

   <msporny>
   -----------------------------------------------------------------

   <msporny> ---------------------Test Case 123 SPARQL
   -----------------------

   <msporny> ASK WHERE {

   <msporny> <[40]http://example.org/>

     [40] http://example.org/%3E

   <msporny> <[41]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title>

     [41] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title%3E

   <msporny> "Test Case 0123" .

   <msporny> <[42]http://example.org/>

     [42] http://example.org/%3E

   <msporny> <[43]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor>

     [43] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor%3E

   <msporny> "Shane McCarron" .

   <msporny> }

   <msporny>
   ----------------------------------------------------------------

   Shane: @href and @src are evaluated the same way

   <msporny> +1

   <markbirbeck> +1

   Ben: +1

   <mhausenblas> +1

   RESOLUTION: test case 123 with [] invalid CURIE approved

   <ShaneM> +1

   <Ralph> +1, though recommend changing the SPAN content to give a
   semantically less confusing title

   ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set object
   based on TC 123. [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

comment from december about test suite:

   ACTION: Manu to look at
   [45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
   ec/0037.html [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [45] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html

   Manu: Didn't have time to look at it in depth.

   <benadida> consensus from dec 4th:

   <benadida> so I think we have consensus about @prefix='p1=u1 p2=u2
   ...'

   <benadida> ... and that @prefix='=u1' seems not to have value

   <benadida> ... and @prefix='u1' may have value and should be further
   investigated

   <benadida> -->
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-minutes.html#item02

     [47] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-minutes.html#item02

keyword bundles and HTML4-compatible RDFa

   benadida: We agree that there needs to be some non-xml based
   approach to declare namespaces. Should it be called @prefix?
   ... We need to make that decision.
   ... We should confirm the idea that a "with" statement is not
   useful. We drop the idea of @prefix="=u1".
   ... If we want to provide bundles, are they bundles of reserved
   words, or more involved transformations.

   markbirbeck: I don't think we finalized whether the syntax within
   the attribute is "a=b" or "a:b" or something else.
   ... If it is some sort of transformation, it would be a set of
   transformations defined using RDF.
   ... Fresnel is one example of this approach.
   ... Transformations are out of scope in a way, we don't need to
   overload the RDFa parsing algorithm.

   benadida: Do you have a draft of your deeper thoughts about this
   issue?

   markbirbeck: I'm a bit weary of discussing this off-list, prefer to
   have the discussion in the public.
   ... We're keen to address the issue

   benadida: I agree.

   markbirbeck: I like "keyword bundle"

   benadida: It would be good to see how all this stuff plays together.

   ShaneM: These should be two separate topics. @prefix is one, keyword
   bundles is the other.

   benadida: Any other decisions that we need to make that are missing?

   markbirbeck: there isn't any particular reason that we couldn't end
   up with two more attributes.
   ... We could agree on @prefix and get that done.
   ... @token and keyword bundles could use another attribute.
   ... and it could come later.

   <ShaneM> oooh - we could introduce curie-xxx attributes just to
   irritate people in the tag (that was sarcasm!)

   @token would be used to specify these values at run-time.

   server-curie-xx

   benadida: We do have a proposal on the table for @prefix,
   prefix="p1=u1 p2=u2"

   markbirbeck: There are some benefits to have @prefix in the HEAD -
   it could be argued that it should apply in the BODY.

   ShaneM: Didn't we talk about using LINK to specify that?

   markbirbeck: Yes, or we could extend it in some other way - a new
   element or attribute.

   <ShaneM> I agree that having prefix / keyword bundles in the head
   that apply to the entire document makes sense.

   Ben: regrets for 22 Jan
   ... next meeting: 22 Jan

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set
   object based on TC 123. [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to look at
   [50]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
   ec/0037.html [recorded in
   [51]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [50] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
   of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
   [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded
   in [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
   about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
   [59]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
   [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [62]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [52] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [53] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [54] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [55] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
     [56] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [57] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [58] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [59] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc
     [60] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [61] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [62] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [63] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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