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Re: meeting record: 2009-01-08 RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon

From: Sergey Chernyshev <rdfa.info@antispam.sergeychernyshev.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:00:10 -0500
Message-ID: <9984a7a70901091100v96ea815v705970e683b0640c@mail.gmail.com>
To: RDFa <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Hi,

As I wrote to the list previously, I'm working on marking up S5 slides with
presentation-related metadata using RDFa and also consider using
Microformats to mark up the data within the same document when it's
appropriate.

I noticed that you have "RDFa for Microformats users" as an action item and
it's exactly what I was thinking about when I was trying to come up with the
solution for my problem and in general.

I don't know the details of what you have in mind for
http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14 but I just want to
describe a problem I experience as representative of a target audience - for
me (I already understand syntax of RDFa and comfortable with tools to test
validity and so on) the next question is which set of RDF ontologies to use
to replace specific Microformats. This means that I already have some
specific usecases that materialized in specific Microformats (e.g. hCalendar
to represent all http://www.techpresentations.org/Category:Conference as
well as http://www.techpresentations.org/Category:Presentation objects) and
the hardest part is to understand which specific ontologies and terms to
use.

In my view, this problem is the one that holds the adoption of Semantic Web
as RDF is advertized as generic tool and publications rarely give specific
answers to specific questions / use cases.

I hope this note is useful and I'll be happy to discuss it more while I'm
still have little experience and can go for fresh guinea pig ;)

Regards,

              Sergey


On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org> wrote:

>
> The record of today's RDFa Task Force telecon is now available:
>
>  http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html
>
> A text snapshot follows.
>
> ----
>
>                      RDF in XHTML 1.0 Task Force
>
> 08 Jan 2009
>
>   [2]Agenda
>
>      [2]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0022.html
>
>   See also: [3]IRC log, previous 2008-12-18
>
>      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-irc
>
> Attendees
>
>   Present
>          Ralph Swick, Michael Hausenblas, Manu Sporny, Shane McCarron,
>          Ben Adida
>
>   Regrets
>   Chair
>          Ben Adida
>
>   Scribe
>          Manu Sporny
>
> Contents
>
>     * Topics
>         1. RDFa NS URL
>         2. Action Items
>         3. Test Cases
>         4. comment from december about test suite:
>         5. keyword bundles and HTML4-compatible RDFa
>     * Summary of Action Items
>     _____________________________________________________
>
> RDFa NS URL
>
>   <ShaneM> we do not use that namespac
>
>   <ShaneM> it is pointed to from the xhtml namespace document
>
>   Ralph: It is up there, somewhere - the XHTML namespace document
>   points to it.
>   ... Where is [11]http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa/ used?
>
>     [11] http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa/
>
>   ShaneM: It shouldn't be circulating, nothing should point to it.
>
>   <ShaneM> [12]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/
>
>     [12] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/
>
>   <benadida> [13]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/Overview.xhtml
>
>     [13] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/Overview.xhtml
>
>   <benadida> (2 days younger)
>
>   <benadida> [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
>
>     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
>
>   ShaneM: Ralph/Steven or I will fix this.
>   ... The contents of both those documents should be exactly the same.
>
>   <ShaneM> ACTION: fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded
>   in [15]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
>
> Action Items
>
>   <benadida> action items -->
>   [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary
>
>     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary
>
>   ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit about="" on
>   HEAD and BODY [recorded in
>   [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc] [CONTINUES]
>
>     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc
>
>   ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of
>   slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
>   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
>
>   ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with
>   screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in
>   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
>
>   ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI
>   is set up. [recorded in
>   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
>
>   ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece
>   [recorded in
>   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>
>   ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan.
>   [recorded in
>   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
>
>   ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in
>   [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
>
>   ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in
>   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
>
>   ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in
>   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
>
>   ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
>   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
>
>   ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
>   in [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
>
>   <mhausenblas> [28]http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Microformats_in_RDF
>
>     [28] http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Microformats_in_RDF
>
>   Manu:2 parts
>   ... part 2 is "If I've already setup my page to use hCard, how do I
>   switch to RDFa?"
>
>   Michael: split it into two parts (how and differences)
>
>   Manu: Perhaps we need something that shows general differences
>   between uF and RDFa, and then gives specific examples.
>
>   ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
>   [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
>   [CONTINUES]
>
>     [29] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
>
> Test Cases
>
>   <msporny> [30]public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0016.html Test Case
>   #121: "[prefix:]" CURIE format is valid
>
>     [30]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0016.html
>
>   Manu: the issue tested here is with suffix-less CURIEs, e.g.
>   "example:"
>   ... CURIE still expands, empty-string as suffix.
>
>   <Ralph> +1
>
>   <mhausenblas> +1
>
>   <ShaneM> +1
>
>   RESOLUTION: test case 121 suffix-less CURIE approved
>
>   <msporny>
>   [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009J
>   an/0017.html Test Case #122: "[:]" CURIE format is valid
>
>     [31]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0017.html
>
>   <mhausenblas> +1
>
>   <Ralph> +1
>
>   <benadida> +1
>
>   <ShaneM> +1
>
>   <markbirbeck> +1
>
>   <msporny> +1
>
>   RESOLUTION: test case 122 prefix and suffix-less CURIE [:] approved
>
>   <msporny> [32]public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0018.html Test Case
>   #123: "[]" is a valid safe CURIE
>
>     [32]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0018.html
>
>   <mhausenblas> [33]public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0026.html
>
>     [33]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0026.html
>
>   <msporny> about="[foo]"
>
>   Manu: the current consensus is that the subject is
>   [34]http://example.org/
>
>     [34] http://example.org/
>
>   <msporny> about="[]"
>
>   Manu: "[foo]" is an invalid CURIE, therefore so should be the empty
>   string
>   ... as neither is in the reserved (XHTML) list
>
>   <msporny> # the mapping to use when there is no prefix is not
>   defined, which effectively prohibits the use of CURIEs that do not
>   contain a colon;
>
>   Ben: did we define CURIES to require a prefix in RDFa?
>
>   Mark: yes
>   ... wasn't my preference, but it was a long discussion
>
>   Ben: considering consistency w.r.t. reserved words
>   ... this is the first instance where an invalid value actually
>   changes the structure
>
>   Mark: and Ivan pointed out the same thing occurs with @about="[foo]"
>
>   Shane: right; @about="[foo]" should not change the subject
>
>   Ben: but the presence of @rel alters the graph structure even if the
>   CURIE is not valid
>   ... however in this case it's acting as if @about was not present
>   ... however, since @about just changes the subject and doesn't by
>   itself generates triples, maybe this is OK
>
>   Mark: it's clear that this is the current spec. We could discuss
>   whether this is the most desireable choice.
>
>   Ben: so if it's not a valid CURIE value, the behavior is as if
>   @about were not there
>
>   Mark: the alternative discussed was to assume the invalid CURIE was
>   in the local document namespace
>   ... and we liked that less
>
>   Ben: the discussion is about the subject; some triple has to be
>   generated, and the spec is clear
>
>   Mark: however, as you note @rel="[foo]" does do some work
>
>   Ben: rephrasing, what is the alternative when an invalid CURIE is
>   found?
>   ... it would seem wrong to drop the triple entirely
>   ... whereas it's more reasonable to drop the triple in @rel="[foo]"
>   ... so I don't see a better alternative for @about="[foo]" without
>   major changes to CURIE
>   ... I'm satisfied with this conclusion
>
>   Mark: the test case seems to be unnecessarily nested
>
>   Manu: yeah, probably; it went through several iterations
>
>   Mark: the middle DIV could probably be dropped
>   ... you only need the first one
>
>   Manu: yeah, it appears the <div about="[35]http://example.org/">
>   could be dropped
>   ... the correct SPARQL should be ...
>
>     [35] http://example.org/
>
>   Shane: do you agree, Mark, that the same rules apply to @resource,
>   @href, @src?
>
>   Ben: only @resource uses SafeCURIE
>
>   <msporny> Here's the updated case:
>
>   Shane: assuming that it is possible to create an illegal URI then
>   the general rule would hold that an illegal URI is ignored
>
>   Mark: yeah
>
>   Shane: @href and @src?
>
>   <msporny> ---------------------Test Case 123
>   XHTML--------------------------
>
>   <msporny> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
>
>   <msporny> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"
>
>   <msporny> "[36]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd">
>
>     [36] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd
>
>   <msporny> <html xmlns="[37]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>
>     [37] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
>
>   <msporny> xmlns:dc="[38]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
>
>     [38] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/
>
>   <msporny> <head>
>
>   <msporny> <title>Test Case 0123</title>
>
>   <msporny> </head>
>
>   <msporny> <body>
>
>   <msporny> <p about="[39]http://example.org/">
>
>     [39] http://example.org/
>
>   <msporny> <span about="[]" property="dc:title">Test Case 0123</span>
>
>   <msporny> checks to make sure RDFa processors resolve the empty
>
>   <msporny> CURIE correctly.
>
>   <msporny> <div resource="[]">
>
>   <msporny> <span property="dc:contributor">Shane McCarron</span>
>
>   <msporny> contributed to this test.
>
>   <msporny> </div>
>
>   <msporny> </p>
>
>   <msporny> </body>
>
>   <msporny> </html>
>
>   <msporny>
>   -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   <msporny> ---------------------Test Case 123 SPARQL
>   -----------------------
>
>   <msporny> ASK WHERE {
>
>   <msporny> <[40]http://example.org/>
>
>     [40] http://example.org/%3E
>
>   <msporny> <[41]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title>
>
>     [41] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title%3E
>
>   <msporny> "Test Case 0123" .
>
>   <msporny> <[42]http://example.org/>
>
>     [42] http://example.org/%3E
>
>   <msporny> <[43]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor>
>
>     [43] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor%3E
>
>   <msporny> "Shane McCarron" .
>
>   <msporny> }
>
>   <msporny>
>   ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   Shane: @href and @src are evaluated the same way
>
>   <msporny> +1
>
>   <markbirbeck> +1
>
>   Ben: +1
>
>   <mhausenblas> +1
>
>   RESOLUTION: test case 123 with [] invalid CURIE approved
>
>   <ShaneM> +1
>
>   <Ralph> +1, though recommend changing the SPAN content to give a
>   semantically less confusing title
>
>   ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set object
>   based on TC 123. [recorded in
>   [44]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
>
> comment from december about test suite:
>
>   ACTION: Manu to look at
>   [45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
>   ec/0037.html [recorded in
>   [46]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
>
>     [45]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
>
>   Manu: Didn't have time to look at it in depth.
>
>   <benadida> consensus from dec 4th:
>
>   <benadida> so I think we have consensus about @prefix='p1=u1 p2=u2
>   ...'
>
>   <benadida> ... and that @prefix='=u1' seems not to have value
>
>   <benadida> ... and @prefix='u1' may have value and should be further
>   investigated
>
>   <benadida> -->
>   [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-minutes.html#item02
>
>     [47] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-minutes.html#item02
>
> keyword bundles and HTML4-compatible RDFa
>
>   benadida: We agree that there needs to be some non-xml based
>   approach to declare namespaces. Should it be called @prefix?
>   ... We need to make that decision.
>   ... We should confirm the idea that a "with" statement is not
>   useful. We drop the idea of @prefix="=u1".
>   ... If we want to provide bundles, are they bundles of reserved
>   words, or more involved transformations.
>
>   markbirbeck: I don't think we finalized whether the syntax within
>   the attribute is "a=b" or "a:b" or something else.
>   ... If it is some sort of transformation, it would be a set of
>   transformations defined using RDF.
>   ... Fresnel is one example of this approach.
>   ... Transformations are out of scope in a way, we don't need to
>   overload the RDFa parsing algorithm.
>
>   benadida: Do you have a draft of your deeper thoughts about this
>   issue?
>
>   markbirbeck: I'm a bit weary of discussing this off-list, prefer to
>   have the discussion in the public.
>   ... We're keen to address the issue
>
>   benadida: I agree.
>
>   markbirbeck: I like "keyword bundle"
>
>   benadida: It would be good to see how all this stuff plays together.
>
>   ShaneM: These should be two separate topics. @prefix is one, keyword
>   bundles is the other.
>
>   benadida: Any other decisions that we need to make that are missing?
>
>   markbirbeck: there isn't any particular reason that we couldn't end
>   up with two more attributes.
>   ... We could agree on @prefix and get that done.
>   ... @token and keyword bundles could use another attribute.
>   ... and it could come later.
>
>   <ShaneM> oooh - we could introduce curie-xxx attributes just to
>   irritate people in the tag (that was sarcasm!)
>
>   @token would be used to specify these values at run-time.
>
>   server-curie-xx
>
>   benadida: We do have a proposal on the table for @prefix,
>   prefix="p1=u1 p2=u2"
>
>   markbirbeck: There are some benefits to have @prefix in the HEAD -
>   it could be argued that it should apply in the BODY.
>
>   ShaneM: Didn't we talk about using LINK to specify that?
>
>   markbirbeck: Yes, or we could extend it in some other way - a new
>   element or attribute.
>
>   <ShaneM> I agree that having prefix / keyword bundles in the head
>   that apply to the entire document makes sense.
>
>   Ben: regrets for 22 Jan
>   ... next meeting: 22 Jan
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>   [NEW] ACTION: fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in
>   [48]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
>   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not set
>   object based on TC 123. [recorded in
>   [49]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
>   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to look at
>   [50]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
>   ec/0037.html [recorded in
>   [51]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
>
>     [50]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
>
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
>   of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
>   [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
>   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
>   in [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
>   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
>   [54]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
>   piece [recorded in
>   [55]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
>   for Ivan. [recorded in
>   [56]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded
>   in [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
>   [recorded in
>   [58]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
>   about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
>   [59]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
>   [recorded in
>   [60]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
>   [61]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
>   [recorded in
>   [62]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
>   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
>   [63]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
>
>     [52] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
>     [53] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
>     [54] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
>     [55] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>     [56] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
>     [57] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
>     [58] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
>     [59] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc
>     [60] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
>     [61] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
>     [62] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
>     [63] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
>
>   [End of minutes]
>     _____________________________________________________
>
>
>    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [64]scribe.perl version 1.133
>    ([65]CVS log)
>    $Date: 2009/01/08 17:23:25 $
>
>     [64] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm<http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>
>     [65] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
>
>
>
>


-- 
Sergey Chernyshev
http://www.sergeychernyshev.com/
Received on Friday, 9 January 2009 19:00:51 GMT

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