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Minutes 16 August 2007

From: Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:04:41 +0200
To: RDFa <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.tw67l3qrsmjzpq@acer3010.lan>

In technicolor:
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html

[NEW] ACTION: Ben to update the bookmarklet to handle img@src [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to work test cases 31 and 32 into primer [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: mh to add a test case for @src [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: mh to create best practices wiki page [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: mh to write an img@src test case [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: Steven to check test cases 29-33 [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr [and  
Fabien] and post their implementations to  
http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [recorded  
in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

In monochrome:

                                - DRAFT -

                       Weekly RDFa Teleconference

16 Aug 2007

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0139

    [3]Previous

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes

    [4]Next

       [4] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes

    See also: [5]IRC log

       [5] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Steven, benadida, mhausenblas, markbirbeck

    Regrets
           Shane

    Chair
           Ben

    Scribe
           Steven

Contents

      * [6]Topics
          1. [7]Action Items
          2. [8]Test cases
          3. [9]Issue 55
          4. [10]Issue 42
          5. [11]rdfa-syntax document
          6. [12]@resource/@href
          7. [13]xml:base
      * [14]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

Action Items

    <scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Michael add @xml:base issue to tracker
    [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

    mh: This is the same as issue 57
    ... we should merge

    Steven: The XHTML2 WG discussed this this week and have an opinion

    Ben: We have two isses 57 and 59, raised and not opened
    ... let us accept 59 as open issue

    <benadida> [16]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/59

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/59

    <scribe> -- done

    Ben: Let us agree that we need to deal with this issue
    ... disagreement?
    ... On hearing none, I will make it an open issue

    <scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Mark summarize in mail host
    language-dependent issues such as @lang and @xml:lang [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [DONE]

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

    <scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Michael remove excess xmlns: declarations
    from test cases [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [DONE]

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action10

    <mhausenblas>

    <scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to look into Science Commons use case
    [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

    <scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to recontact implementors Elias,
    MarkB, triplr and post their implementations to
    [20]http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

      [20] http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations
      [21] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

    Ben: I will contact Fabian as well

    <scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere
    proposal [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [DONE]

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10

    <scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to work through xml:lang issue with
    Ivan [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

    Ben: Maybe irrelevant after Mark's email. We'll look at it next week

    mh: Needs resolving for the test cases

    <scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Elias to send email to list with use case
    from IBM [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
    [WITHDRAWN]

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

    Ben: Things are changing at IBM, not sure if Elias will rejoin the
    calls

Test cases

    ->
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007A
    ug/0015.html

      [25]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0015.html

    mh: We did 29-33 last week, so all is well
    ... see last week's minutes

    Ben: So I haven't caught up with emails yet.

    Ben: Steven, please look at the test cases that we approved last
    week

    <scribe> ACTION: Steven to check test cases 29-33 [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

    mh: Take a look at the wiki page

    Ben: Any other test cases?

    mh: All dependent on open issues

    <scribe> ACTION: mh to add a test case for @src [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

Issue 55

    Ben: So rather than depending on the CURIE spec the proposal is that
    we hardwire the CURIE syntax into the RDFa spec

    <mhausenblas> [28]blog post on this issue

      [28] http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/49

    mh: This was an interesting blog

    Mark: This blog convinced me that we need to mention CURIEs
    explicitely
    ... the author just talks about a mess, and we should show we have a
    good solution
    ... we have updated the CURIEs document with a better syntax so that
    we can either insert the text or refer to it, however we want
    ... we will be raising and promoting the document

    Steven: There has been a suggestion we should have a CURIE session
    at the TP

    Ben: I agree that this is the right technical solution. The problem
    is the politics

    Mark: I don't think it is as bad as you think, but I don't mind if
    we don't argue about this one, as long as we don't resolve "we won't
    use CURIEs"
    ... especially in the light of SPARQL doing the right thing

    Ben: If we include the text now, and come last call hope that people
    will say "Why aren't you referring to the CURIE spec?"

    Mark: Good

    Ben: So the question to be asked "Do we use QNames or CURIEs?" is
    answered at first with "We do not use QNames"

    <mhausenblas> +1

    Mark: And refer to the SPARQL case
    ... which uses the exact same entry in the IRI syntax as we do

    <benadida> Propose to RESOLVE: RDFa does not use QNames for
    shortening URIs, as that is technically incorrect. We use the
    equivalent of CURIEs, exactly as SPARQL. We will include the
    definition of CURIES inline with the RDFa syntax, though we may
    eventually choose to refer to the CURIE doc instead.

    Ben: So we use the equivalent of CURIEs exactly as SPARQL

    Steven: Second

    <mhausenblas> +1

    Mark: Agree.

    RESOLUTION: RDFa does not use QNames for shortening URIs, as that is
    technically incorrect. We use the equivalent of CURIEs, exactly as
    SPARQL. We will include the definition of CURIES inline with the
    RDFa syntax, though we may eventually choose to refer to the CURIE
    doc instead.

Issue 42

    Ben: @src on img element
    ... We haven't voted; but we're going to try it in implementations
    ... to see what breaks

    <benadida>
    [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007J
    ul/0209.html

      [29]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0209.html

    Ben: The main idea is that @src will behave like @href

    mh: With lower priority

    Ben: We could decide that later
    ... So we need a test case, to drive the implementors

    <scribe> ACTION: mh to write an img@src test case [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

    <scribe> ACTION: Ben to update the bookmarklet to handle img@src
    [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

rdfa-syntax document

    Ben: Status?

    Mark: We are working on CURIEs
    ... next stop is the syntax document

    Ben: As soon as possible we should have an editor's draft of the doc

    [32]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#rdfa-syntax

      [32] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#rdfa-syntax

    Steven: We have a URL for the editor's draft

    <mhausenblas> Michael: In ->
    [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007A
    ug/0134.html I asked about @resouce usage

      [33]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0134.html

    Ben: I have been added to the CVS mails, and that's great

    Steven: There are no differences yet to the current document
    ... it has only been entered into the XHTML2 pub system

    Ben: On the primer, there are no massive changes needed, but there
    are a few
    ... for instance for @resource
    ... there is no resolution on instanceof yet, we need to move that
    one on

@resource/@href

    <benadida> Michael's proposal: As per TAG finding httpRange-14
    [$1\47] the value of @href MUST be an information resource, and the
    value of @resource MAY be an information resource. RDFa authors
    SHALL use a URI that identifies a non-information resources for the
    value of @resource.

    <mhausenblas> Michael: as of ->
    [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007A
    ug/0134.html

      [34]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0134.html

    Ben: I disagree slightly
    ... it seems to be overstepping our bounds

    Mark: I totally agree
    ... HTML doesn't say what can go in an href, so we shouldn't either

    Ben: This seems more like a best practice than a MUST
    ... and maybe a wiki page on best practice would be a good idea

    mh: This was a proposal to make things clear
    ... like we do with CURIEs
    ... but I'm happy with what you said

    Mark: There is no difference between a resource and a non-resource
    ... I only wanted to make it possible to make a non-clickable
    reference to a non-resource

    mh: It is an RDF issue, not an RDFa issue

    Mark: The difference won't show up in the triples

    Ben: I propose a resolution
    ... that we won't require this proposal, but that we will create a
    best practices document

    <benadida> proposed RESOLUTION: we do not place restrictions on the
    URIs in @href and @resource, but we will create a wiki page of good
    practices for certain use cases.

    Mark: Let's make sure the examples are in the primer, and not labour
    the point

    <mhausenblas> +1

    mh: I second

    RESOLUTION: we do not place restrictions on the URIs in @href and
    @resource, but we will create a wiki page of good practices for
    certain use cases.

    <scribe> ACTION: mh to create best practices wiki page [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

    <scribe> ACTION: Ben to work test cases 31 and 32 into primer
    [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

xml:base

    Ben: Mark's email looks like it is about greater context than XHTML
    1.1

    Mark: I tried to think of things we would want (rel paths, mappings,
    and lang) that it would be wrong for us to define
    ... since it should come from the host language
    ... xml:base comes into that category

    Steven: I propose we say that URI processing is defined by the host
    language

    Ben: So in XHTML 1.1 it would be the base element and not xml:base
    that applies

    Mark: We should understand xml:base, but not impose it on langauges

    <mhausenblas> Michael: XML Base is clearly defined in ->
    [37]http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/

      [37] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/

    Mark: The XHTML2 WG may add an xml:base module for use in other
    languages
    ... But we don't know what the application supports
    ... we have to process it if we find it

    Ben: My application outsources the work to the browser
    ... it does the resolution for me

    mh: Then you depend on the browser

    Steven: What would Google do if it processed RDFa?

    Mark: So in my processor I always process xml:base
    ... but you are suggesting that if I am not in XML mode, I have to
    detect what I *am* processing
    ... I can live with that

    <mhausenblas> Michael: ->
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaInHTML needs an update

      [38] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaInHTML

    Ben: So in XHTML 1.1 xml:base has no effect (assuming we can detect
    that it is XHTML 1.1)

    <mhausenblas> +1

    Ben: So resolved

    RESOLUTION: in XHTML 1.1 xml:base has no effect

    [adjourn]

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Ben to update the bookmarklet to handle img@src
    [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
    [NEW] ACTION: Ben to work test cases 31 and 32 into primer [recorded
    in [40]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
    [NEW] ACTION: mh to add a test case for @src [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
    [NEW] ACTION: mh to create best practices wiki page [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
    [NEW] ACTION: mh to write an img@src test case [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
    [NEW] ACTION: Steven to check test cases 29-33 [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case
    [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr
    [and Fabien] and post their implementations to
    [46]http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations recorded in
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan
    [recorded in
    [48]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

      [45] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
      [46] http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations
      [47] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
      [48] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

    [DONE] ACTION: Michael add @xml:base issue to tracker [recorded in
    [49]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
    [DONE] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal
    [recorded in
    [50]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
    [DONE] ACTION: Mark summarize in mail host language-dependent issues
    such as @lang and @xml:lang [recorded in
    [51]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
    [DONE] ACTION: Michael remove excess xmlns: declarations from test
    cases [recorded in
    [52]http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

      [49] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
      [50] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10
      [51] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
      [52] http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action10

    [DROPPED] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
    [recorded in
    [53]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

      [53] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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