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Minutes of 2004-11-16 teleconference for review

From: Simon Raboczi <raboczi@tucanatech.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:29:45 +1000
Message-Id: <CA7B6F93-3BC9-11D9-85D3-000A95C5686E@tucanatech.com>
To: public-rdf-dawg@w3.org

As usual, the scribe apologizes contritely for the lateness of these  
minutes.


RDF Data Access Working Group: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/
Tuesday 2004-11-16 9:30am-11:30am/14:30-16:30 UTC
supplementary IRC chat log: http://www.w3.org/2004/11/16-dawg-irc


1. Convene, take roll, review agenda

chair: Eric Prud'hommeaux
scribe: Simon Rabocze
regrets: Kendall Clark
attending: Tom Adams
            Dave Beckett
            Dan Connolly (IRC only)
            Jos De Roo
            Steve Harris
            Pat Hayes
            Howard Katz
            Eric Prud'hommeaux
            Simon Raboczi
            Alberto Reggiori
            Janne Saarela
            Andy Seaborne

RESOLVED without opposition to accept as a true record:
    
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0264.html
as amended by
    
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0267.html
    
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0289.html

ACTION DanC: owner of issue 'yes or no questions' (pending protocol doc)
CONTINUED without discussion

ACTION AlbertoR: owns issue 'DESCRIBE'
CONTINUED without discussion

ACTION: SteveH is willing to adapt his testing infrastructure to  
generate input/output RDF/XML and typed nodes into manifest file
CONTINUED without discussion

ACTION EricP: find logistics re F2F5 at tech plenary in Boston March 28  
Feb - 4 Mar
CONTINUED without discussion

ACTION DanC: notify SemWeb CG of EbXML possible sync point in April
CONTINUED without discussion


2. FTF 4

19-20 January 2005 Espoo, Finland (Hosted by Profium)
     
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0211.html
dress warmly!

ACTION DanC: Make a dawg f2f4 registration form
DONE:  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0268.html

Only 3 or 4 people have registered so far.  Everyone should register!
Janne tempts visitors with the first snow of the season in delightful  
Finland.
Eric asks Janne whether there are any logistics issues, to which Janne  
replies that this would be better to defer until next week, when more  
attendence results are in.


3. Protocol

Protocol draft: http://monkeyfist.com/kendall/sparql-protocol/

The chair suggested that without Kendall (the author and editor of the  
protocol document) we'll defer discussing protocol.

ACTION KendallC: expose our walking tour data to SPARQL querying clients
CONTINUED: ETA before F2F4

ACTION TomA: read the protocol draft [protocol] and email a review to  
the WG before the next telcon 2004-11-09
CONTINUED without discussion, as TomA wasn't on the phone at the time  
the agendum was raised

ACTION JanneS: read the protocol draft [protocol] and email a review to  
the WG before the next telcon 2004-11-09
DONE:  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0293.html


4. SPARQL SOURCE Issue

Any more discussion of  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0241.html ?

ACTION JanneS: review  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0256.html and check what happens when no source support is implemented
CONTINUED
Janne's preliminary impression is that it may be safe to just omit the  
binding if SOURCE is not available.
DaveB suggests that either an error should be returned or that we need  
to permit two sets of test results, one for systems that support SOURCE  
and another for those that don't.
AndyS worries that a variables will behave differently when appearing  
in a SOURCE clause than when it appears elsewhere.
PatH refers to TAG recommending hard failure for features that aren't  
supported.
Eric notes that XML is an example of a spec in which mandating hard  
failures seems to have been helpful.

ACTION DaveB: update the dawg test repository to record or amend tests  
to correspond to the  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0241.html proposal
CONTINUED
Both AndyS and JosD were uncertain about what exactly the NAMED syntax  
was achieving in message 241.

Following the naming discussion TomA took an ACTION to forward a  
summary of internal discussion at Tucana on the topic of URIs for  
graphs.
These minutes are late enough that this has already been DONE:  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0319.html

AndyS will attempt to incorporate DaveB's work into the SPARQL query  
document, while Dave is busy.

ACTION DanC: suggest formal definitions for SOURCE
CONTINUED


5. SPARQL Disjunction issue

ACTION SimonR: explain how much of disjuction can be done with  
optionals, nested or otherwise.  Point to references, problems with  
LEFT OUTER JOIN in the literature.
Related:  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0294.html
DONE: SimonR was of the opinion that his counterexample of  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0296.html demonstrated that disjunction couldn't generally be replaced  
by outer join, but that disjunction of triple pattern constraints could  
always be replaced by disjunction in a value constraints.


6. SPARQL update, issues

See http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/

ACTION EricP: supply definitions for SELECT (vars ordered or not?) ala
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0151.html
WITHDRAW  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
thread.html#265 and look for "Definition: Projection" in  
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#select

The question is whether the order of the variables in the SELECT clause  
should specify the order of the variables in the result set.
AlbertoR pointed out that requiring order would mean than any  
RDF/XML-based serialization of results would require containers or  
collections.
For: column order was expected behavior based on existing APIs in  
(e.g.) perl, php, JDBC
Against: column ordering is unnecessary, and unnecessary constraints  
are to be avoided
No resolution reached.

ACTION: AndyS to write a test cases which use ? and $ in the same query
DONE:  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0289.html


DanC asked for somebody else to help on reading and responding to the  
comments list.

ACTION: Tom Adams volunteered and got the job to read the list, respond
and pass on things to/from the WG and the comments list.
[ ACTION interpreted from  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/ 
0264.html ]

TomA thanked AndyS for handling some of this while he'd been busy, and  
stated that he was now indeed able to undertake the task.


ADJOURNED at 15:40Z

Next meeting: Tuesday 2004-11-23 at 14:30 UTC,
  chair: EricP
  scribe: AndyS
  regrets: AlbertoR for 23 Nov (pending travel)
           DanC for 23 Nov, 30 Nov
           DaveB for 23 Nov, 30 Nov
           HowardK for 23 Nov, 30 Nov
           TomA for 23 Nov

Tune in next time for:
- Enough F2F4 registrations to discuss logistics
- Deferred discussion of protocol
Received on Sunday, 21 November 2004 14:30:33 GMT

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