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Re: PROV-ISSUE-370 (tracedTo-inference-only): Should tracedTo be moved to prov-constraints and be defined as a binary relation that can be inferred [prov-dm]

From: Jun Zhao <jun.zhao@zoo.ox.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 12:21:56 +0100
Message-ID: <4FA26A54.5030207@zoo.ox.ac.uk>
To: public-prov-wg@w3.org

Stian, and all,

On 02/05/2012 10:33, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote:
> That is a good use-case.
>
> prov:tracedTo is also appropriate when A is not necessarily derived
> from B, but is still "somehow" influenced by it.
>
> It's interpretation in PROV is that B must have been generated before
> A was generated, and is a hint that B is "in A's provenance past" -
> perhaps opening for deeper queries to find that path.
>
> It can also be an extension point for "other" domain-specific
> relationships, for instance ex:wasPresent or ex:influenced.

Personally, I would never go that far with my provenance, unless I have 
a very good reason to do so or I know very clearly what I would be able 
do with such subtleties.

But in case someone else does care, I would say we should include this 
point of extension discussion in the DM for tracedTo. I have been having 
a hard time to find justification for this property and been keeping 
myself quiet:)

cheers,

Jun
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Paul Groth<p.t.groth@vu.nl>  wrote:
>> My concrete use case would be to put things like confidence values on
>> these links. For example, in one of our systems we "guess" if there is
>> a tracedto and what to put some confidence value on that link. This is
>> one of the reasons I like attributes in the model.
>>
>> We could do this with derivation so it's not a big deal but the nice
>> thing is that traced to is transitive...
>>
>> cheers
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>  wrote:
>>> Hi Paul,
>>>
>>> Do you have a concrete use case, in particular, with attributes?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Luc
>>>
>>> On 04/30/2012 12:17 PM, Paul Groth wrote:
>>>> I think traced-to is useful to sometime assert especially in the case
>>>> where you want to be very vague about provenance. It's also nice to
>>>> have attributes so that you can associate other sorts of information
>>>> with it.
>>>>
>>>> However, if others think it's nicer to be inference only then I won't
>>>> be stand in the way.
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Provenance Working Group Issue
>>>> Tracker<sysbot+tracker@w3.org>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-370 (tracedTo-inference-only): Should tracedTo be moved to prov-constraints and be defined as a binary relation that can be inferred [prov-dm]
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/370
>>>>>
>>>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>> On product: prov-dm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> TracedTo was introduced in the data model so as to have a transitive relation over derivations, etc. It can be inferred. In contrast, its definition as an assertion was not very compelling. In the latest version of prov-constraints, it is only defined as something that can be inferred.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really, it looks like a relation that is useful to express queries.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, in the spirit of simplification, should we move it out of prov-dm, and have it defined in prov-constraints only.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the same time, it could be simplified to a binary relation, since we have no way of inferring attributes for this relation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
>> Assistant Professor
>> Knowledge Representation&  Reasoning Group
>> Artificial Intelligence Section
>> Department of Computer Science
>> VU University Amsterdam
>>
>
>
>
Received on Thursday, 3 May 2012 11:22:22 GMT

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