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Re: PROV-ISSUE-42 (derivation-agent): Derivation should specifically mention agent in its definition [Conceptual Model]

From: martin <martin@ics.forth.gr>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:17:19 +0300
Message-ID: <4E2D50BF.2030909@ics.forth.gr>
To: public-prov-wg@w3.org
Dear All,

I may miss here something, but if derivation is nothing else than the closure of all used things,
I do not see any point in calling it "derivation", but right away "use". This definition extends the
intuition of derivation beyond recognition. For instance, it would include all raw materials.
Also, I do not understand how a "characterized entity" could "affect" another, if it is not an agent.

I'd prefer a definition of derivation based on a notion that relevant features of a source are transferred
to the "derivative". This makes also sense for IPR.

Best,

Martin

On 7/25/2011 12:54 PM, Paul Groth wrote:
> Hi Luc,
>
> looking at the definition of Derivation it says:
>
> "Derivation expresses that some characterized entity is transformed from, created from, or affected by another characterized entity."
>
> I think I'm thinking of the "created from" part of the definition in my example. I want to say explicitly that David (e0) created an
> article(e1). Notationally: isCreatedFrom(e1, e0)
>
> I think this is compatible with the definition as it stands but not compatible with the inference rule you propose. It would seem bizzare to
> say that a process used a person in this example...
>
> Could you explain how that should be represented using the concepts we have?
>
> Several of the shortcuts I think we need rely on making simple statements about agents and their relationship to an entity. I thought the
> best approach was to create specializations of isDerivedFrom but maybe that's not the best approach and it would be good to understand that
> better.
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> Luc Moreau wrote:
>> Yes, I have no problem for agents to be source/destination of a
>> derivation, but your example
>> may introduce some confusion. Let me try and explain why.
>>
>>
>>
>> First, I think there is a missing "inference" in the specification.
>>
>> If there isDerivedFrom(e1,e0) holds, then there exists a process
>> execution pe, and roles r0,r1,
>> isGeneratedBy(e1,pe,r1) and use(pe,e0,r0)
>>
>>
>> So, if I apply this to your example,
>>
>> isGeneratedBy(e0,pe,r1) and use(pe,David,r0)
>>
>>
>> David may have been asserted to be an agent, or the agent nature of
>> David can be inferred (as per definition
>> of agent), but it's not because of its involvement in pe. It has to be
>> in another process execution, right?
>>
>> Maybe, the example could become:
>>
>> isDerivedFrom(david-in-his-thirties, david-in-his-twenties).
>>
>> What do you think?
>> Luc
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/23/2011 04:36 PM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>> PROV-ISSUE-42 (derivation-agent): Derivation should specifically mention agent in its definition [Conceptual Model]
>>>
>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/42
>>>
>>> Raised by: Paul Groth
>>> On product: Conceptual Model
>>>
>>> Given that isDerivedFrom is between Bobs this by definition allows it to relate agents, it would nice for informative to mention this in
>>> the definition.
>>>
>>> For example, I would like to say that isDerivedFrom(e0, David) this is fine with the current definition but might not be clear.
>>>
>>> Suggested resolution:
>>>
>>> Add the following statement: "Note, that isDerivedFrom can also include agents. For example, isDerivedFrom(e0, David).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>


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Received on Monday, 25 July 2011 11:18:05 GMT

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