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Re: [Issue-63] New value for "Values for the Localization Quality Issue Type": "conformance" Re: [Minutes] MLW-LT call 2013-02-25 and action for implementers / review dry run

From: David Lewis <dave.lewis@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:24:35 +0000
Message-Id: <8EDF1FC1-85E7-49FC-8019-F36C556FC608@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>, Phil Ritchie <philr@vistatec.ie>, "public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org" <public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org>
To: "Dr. David Filip" <David.Filip@ul.ie>
Perhaps if we are inverting the meaning, then 'anomalous' might be a better name. Just a suggestion.

Dave

On 26 Feb 2013, at 13:39, "Dr. David Filip" <David.Filip@ul.ie> wrote:

> All, I realize that Yves, had proposed inverting the value to
> non-conformance here
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0048.html
> which I think makes lot of sense.
> So we indeed need Phil's input here for making the call for consensus.
> @Phil, will you have this addressed in your proposal by tomorrow in
> order to move forward to the call for consensus?
> Thanks
> dF
> 
> Dr. David Filip
> =======================
> LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
> University of Limerick, Ireland
> telephone: +353-6120-2781
> cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
> facsimile: +353-6120-2734
> mailto: david.filip@ul.ie
> 
> 
> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Dr. David Filip <David.Filip@ul.ie> wrote:
>> Felix, thanks for the minutes.
>> Felix, Phil, I expected a call for consensus to accept the new
>> conformance type as proposed by Phil, but the minutes say that this
>> did not move forward because Phil was not present.
>> Do you want Phil to make the call for consensus? I thought all was
>> clear on this one, and we literally only wanted to see if anyone
>> eventually comes with a new material objection.
>> I think it is time to close this one.. Thanks and please let me know
>> how you want to proceed re this issue.
>> dF
>> 
>> Dr. David Filip
>> =======================
>> LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
>> University of Limerick, Ireland
>> telephone: +353-6120-2781
>> cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
>> facsimile: +353-6120-2734
>> mailto: david.filip@ul.ie
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> minutes are at
>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html
>>> and below as text. Two important action items:
>>> 
>>> - please fill in the doodle poll for Luxembourg, see
>>> http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9
>>> - HTML implementers: have a look at
>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#item04
>>> and the discussion on defaults for HTML. The default implementation proposal
>>> at
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0235.html
>>> may put some burden on implementers, see e.g.
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0243.html
>>> before moving this forward we need to be sure that this is feasible. We will
>>> discuss the topic again on Wednesday.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Felix
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Felix
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   [1]W3C
>>> 
>>>      [1] http://www.w3.org/
>>> 
>>>                               - DRAFT -
>>> 
>>>                               MLW-LT WG
>>> 
>>> 25 Feb 2013
>>> 
>>>   [2]Agenda
>>> 
>>>      [2]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0241.html
>>> 
>>>   See also: [3]IRC log
>>> 
>>>      [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-irc
>>> 
>>> Attendees
>>> 
>>>   Present
>>>          joerg, felix, kfritsche, Ankit, Des, Pedro, omstefanov,
>>>          Jirka, Yves, shaunm, Marcis, pnietoca, leroy, mdelolmo,
>>>          Giuseppe, Milan, tadej, davelewis
>>> 
>>>   Regrets
>>>          christian, clemens, dom
>>> 
>>>   Chair
>>>          felix
>>> 
>>>   Scribe
>>>          shaunm
>>> 
>>> Contents
>>> 
>>>     * [4]Topics
>>>         1. [5]agenda
>>>         2. [6]High level usage scenario doc publication
>>>         3. [7]HTML ITS default behaviour
>>>         4. [8]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt
>>>            /track/issues/68
>>>         5. [9]Conformance type
>>>         6. [10]XLIFF mapping
>>>         7. [11]Unicode normalization / NIF comments , ITS
>>>            Ontology
>>>         8. [12]AOB / Rome / Luxembourg prep
>>>     * [13]Summary of Action Items
>>>     __________________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> agenda
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt/2013Feb/0241.html
>>> 
>>>     [14]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0241.html
>>> 
>>> High level usage scenario doc publication
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [15]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use
>>>   _cases_-_high_level_summary
>>> 
>>>     [15]
>>> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> - having Christian editing the doc until next Monday
>>>   - vote for publication 6 March call - publication 8 March
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> next monday = 4 march
>>> 
>>>   fsasaki: publishing march 8. last date before the workshop
>>>   ... Please go through your use cases
>>> 
>>> HTML ITS default behaviour
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: there is discrepancy in behavior between different data
>>>   categories in HTML
>>>   ... when an author marks up a document because of different
>>>   behavior in different tools
>>>   ... we don't specify things like the <b> element should be
>>>   withinText
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> ITS 1.0 global rules are at
>>>   [16]http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#relating-its-plus-xhtml
>>> 
>>>     [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#relating-its-plus-xhtml
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: we could have a set of global rules for HTML that
>>>   implementors must use
>>>   ... if you don't implement global rules, this won't work.
>>>   instead have default attributes
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> default implementation proposal at
>>>   [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt/2013Feb/0235.html
>>> 
>>>     [17]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0235.html
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: implementation of such defaults is probably difficult
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt/2013Feb/0243.html
>>> 
>>>     [18]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0243.html
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: implementation is not a problem for okapi
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt/2013Feb/0205.html
>>> 
>>>     [19]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0205.html
>>> 
>>>   pnietoca: some MT systems hardcode translation of some
>>>   attributes
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [20]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085
>>> 
>>>     [20] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: currently html translate affects attribute and
>>>   its:translate does not
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [21]http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#datacategories
>>>   -defaults-etc
>>> 
>>>     [21]
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#datacategories-defaults-etc
>>> 
>>>   kfritsche: in our implementation, we use non HTML specific
>>>   defaults from the ITS spec, sec. 8.1
>>> 
>>>   <Marcis> Will there be a list of defaults somewhere specified?
>>>   We are currently adding Elements Within Text rules within HTML
>>>   documents...
>>> 
>>>   pnietoca: we use global rules for translate, for instance.
>>>   ... if some people don't use it, you have to hardcode which
>>>   attributes to translate
>>> 
>>>   kfritsche: is this the proposal to change the default values in
>>>   table 8.1?
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: proposal is to have in the html specification
>>>   information on defaults
>>> 
>>>   fsasaki: or we could provide a global rules file
>>>   ... I was proposing the defaults for people only doing its
>>>   locally
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: there's a discrepancy between defaults and global rules
>>>   because of overriding
>>>   ... people who don't implement ITS globally just have to make
>>>   sure the behavior with defaults matches what it would be with
>>>   default values
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> shaun: issue of not knowing what you are overriding
>>>   with local attributes - that is an issue with any format right?
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> yves: yes
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> shaun: who are the implementers who don't do global
>>>   rules?
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [22]http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnl
>>>   e/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html
>>> 
>>>     [22]
>>> http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> it seems everybody of the implementers currently on
>>>   the table, do global rules
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> karl: new implementers might do local markup only -
>>>   we should be aware of that
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> shaun: there is no implementation difficulty for me
>>>   either way
>>> 
>>>   fsasaki: propose not to close this issue too fast
>>>   ... other people not on the call might have different opinions
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: implementors could look at their implementations to see
>>>   how difficult defaults versus global rules is
>>> 
>>>   fsasaki: give implementors time, come back to issue next
>>>   wednesday
>>> 
>>>   <daveL> apologies for joining late
>>> 
>>> [23]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/
>>> 68
>>> 
>>>     [23]
>>> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/68
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> see draft + example files here
>>>   [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt/2013Feb/0221.html
>>> 
>>>     [24]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html
>>> 
>>>   tadej: no major contents changes. sent a draft to the mailing
>>>   list
>>>   ... we are dropping granularity levels, renaming to text
>>>   analysis, clarified some
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> ACTION: christian to edit issue-68 proposal at
>>>   [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [recorded in
>>>   [26]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
>>> 
>>>     [25]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html
>>> 
>>>   <trackbot> Created ACTION-451 - Edit issue-68 proposal at
>>>   [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [on Christian Lieske -
>>>   due 2013-03-04].
>>> 
>>>     [27]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt/2013Feb/att-0221/ta-examples-20130222.zip
>>> 
>>>     [28]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/att-0221/ta-examples-20130222.zip
>>> 
>>>   omstefanov: all the file names in the test suite still refer to
>>>   disambiguation
>>> 
>>>   tadej: should we rename all the files?
>>> 
>>>   leroy: yes, and move to directories named for the category
>>> 
>>> Conformance type
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt-comments/2013Feb/0048.html
>>> 
>>>     [29]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0048.html
>>> 
>>>   fsasaki: needs input from Phil. Phil not present today
>>> 
>>> XLIFF mapping
>>> 
>>>   daveL: xliff round-trip examples for rome help use work through
>>>   some issues
>>>   ... we need separate discussions on how best to present that as
>>>   best practices. don't spend time on that now. maybe in rome
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: while discussing terminology, we realized when you tag
>>>   something in xliff, we don't have a way to mark it up with ITS
>>>   in the original document
>>> 
>>>   <Marcis> A question: if we add mark-up to XLIFF, should we use
>>>   the mrk or its:span annotation?
>>> 
>>>   daveL: in XLIFF we can add things after authoring time; don't
>>>   have local markup for these in ITS
>>> 
>>>   <Yves_> to marcis: <mrk> (you can't have <its:span> in XLIFF)
>>> 
>>>   Yves_: you can add ITS attributes to <mrk>. some are redundant
>>>   with XLIFF attributes
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [30]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLI
>>>   FF_Mapping
>>> 
>>>     [30]
>>> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLIFF_Mapping
>>> 
>>>   daveL: three use cases: mapping from source format to XLIFF,
>>>   mapping from XLIFF to target format, marking up XLIFF to be
>>>   consumed in XLIFF in another process
>>>   ... ideally have the same markup in all those cases, but might
>>>   not be possible
>>> 
>>> Unicode normalization / NIF comments , ITS Ontology
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt-comments/2013Feb/0050.html
>>> 
>>>     [31]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0050.html
>>> 
>>>   fsasaki: don't require normalization in other technologies.
>>>   propose to close issue
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [32]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
>>>   ssues/119
>>> 
>>>     [32]
>>> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/119
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki>
>>>   [33]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/ITS
>>>   -RDF_mapping#Ontology_.28DRAFT.29
>>> 
>>>     [33]
>>> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/ITS-RDF_mapping#Ontology_.28DRAFT.29
>>> 
>>>   daveL: expanded that out of example in NIF
>>>   ... took a Relax NG schema and went through data categories to
>>>   see which could be used in RDF and NIF
>>>   ... appreciate feedback
>>>   ... haven't figured out what we need to do with annotators ref.
>>>   works out in provenance setting, but maybe not NIF
>>>   ... problems where we've introduced idea that order has
>>>   temporal relationship
>>> 
>>> AOB / Rome / Luxembourg prep
>>> 
>>>   <fsasaki> [34]http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9
>>> 
>>>     [34] http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9
>>> 
>>>   fsasaki: have a call to prepare for rome meeting. please fill
>>>   in doodle poll
>>> 
>>> Summary of Action Items
>>> 
>>>   [NEW] ACTION: christian to edit issue-68 proposal at
>>>   [35]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
>>>   lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [recorded in
>>>   [36]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
>>> 
>>>     [35]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html
>>> 
>>>   [End of minutes]
>>>     __________________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> 
>>>    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [37]scribe.perl version
>>>    1.137 ([38]CVS log)
>>>    $Date: 2013-02-25 17:36:45 $
>>> 
>>>     [37] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>>>     [38] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
> 
Received on Tuesday, 26 February 2013 23:25:03 UTC

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