Re: Minutes 2017/05/11- DRAFT

Thanks so much, Kyrce!

Best,
Peter.

On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Daniel Marques <dani@wiris.com> wrote:

> Thank you very much Kyrce!
>
>
>
> Dani
>
>
>
> *From:* Swenson, Kyrce [mailto:kyrce.swenson@pearson.com]
> *Sent:* jueves, 11 de mayo de 2017 19:19
> *To:* public-mathonwebpages@w3.org
> *Subject:* Minutes 2017/05/11- DRAFT
>
>
>
> *Topic:* Layout
>
> *Attendees: *Peter Krauzberger, Daniel Marques, Jean Kaplansky, Volker
> Sorge, Sam Dooley, Charles LaPierre,  Kyrce Swenson
>
> *Scribe:* Kyrce Swenson
>
>
>
> -----
>
>
>
> *Peter: *What can improve and give feedback on layout requirements so
> that other web standards can be influenced by the WG?
>
>
>
> Collect use cases.
>
>
>
> Some contact already with the CSS working group, Including actual issue
> that MathJAX needs to respond to.
>
>
>
> Link in issue to codepen example to sketch out the basic problem: [1] Two
> dimensional content in inline content. Must be aligned with the baseline.
> In CSS only the top or the bottom can be aligned to the baseline.. No tools
> for something like a simple fraction, etc. This example was trying to
> explain this problem. Current solutions all require manual baseline fixing
> and shifts.
>
>
>
> This takes time and adds complexity. We need a way to tell CSS what should
> be at the baseline level.
>
>
>
> *Dani**: *The limits of the technology are MathJAX and we can use MathML
> directly in FF, and there are solutions from Wiris. Be able to do
> mathematics using only html5 + css. We need to be able to tell the CSS
> people to convince them.
>
>
>
> *Peter: *
>
> there's also KaTeX, MathQuill, and a bunch of hobby projects.
>
>
>
> *Peter* identify use cases that are broader than mathematical. Example:
> aligned SVGs inline because they had some textual content. Wanted to align
> the text not the image  [2]
>
>
>
> Little chance that this will be something only math needs. These
> challenges are interesting in a general sense as well.
>
>
>
> *Volker: *Right now we are talking about vertical growth not ascenders
> and descenders growing. More serious problem: Left to Right layout you have
> to change the layout while you are rendering a stretchy character.  Hard to
> describe but obvious when i see it.
>
>
>
> Fraction as a vertical shift. Potentiallyl two directions. To render a
> line you go from the left to the right. Once the fraction grows then you
> have to go back and start stretching your brackets,  or similar. Not
> supported by CSS.
>
>
>
> *Jean:  *re: CSS and the need to go forward and back... You're talking
> about multiple runs through to create one rendition.
>
>
>
> Browsers don't do this stuff. Formatting engines do.
>
>
>
> I could see mathJax or a web service doing this, but think the browser
> vendors will kick and scream over the request.
>
>
>
> *Volker: * So meaning that there's no reason to have this in the CSS
> spec?  Yes they will but there might be other ways of doing this. How do I
> style my parent element based on whether or not it has a particular child?
>
>
>
> *Jean: *Choose your battles? Do you think you can get vendors on board
> with it in the spec?
>
>
>
> Right. Conditional stuff. But again - its the ability to look forward and
> look back.
>
>
>
> *Volker: *goal to get things in the spec? or figure out what is needed?
>
>
>
> Browsers aren't good at looking forward and look back in declarative
> languages.
>
>
>
> *Peter: *First step to collect what problems we see. But next steps are
> to identify the right pieces to tackle. Might be more sensible to solve
> with SVG group.
>
>
>
> *Dani:  *Better to discuss how to discuss the examples? Wiki?
>
>
>
> *Peter: *just use the github issue tracker with a label -- individual
> issues labeled as layout.
>
>
>
> *Jean: *Thumbs up for a wiki - maybe a github page?
>
> Why not a github wiki page so we can see everything in context?
>
>
>
> *Peter: *does not allow to inject CSS. Not enough control.
>
>
>
> *Dani: *what is the idea to work collaboratively? people just fetch the
> file and edit it?
>
>
>
> *Peter:* just go to edit file and make a pull request? Lots of things
> available via the web interface.
>
>
>
> *Dani: * better to have each of its problems on its own page.
>
>
>
> *Peter: *if we split it on the issue tracker we can actually help people
> give feedback if they think it is a priority to them.  Not expecting
> hundreds of people however.
>
>
>
> *Dani*: at the point that something is written, more people who are
> interested will join.
>
>
>
> [Peter had to leave. ]
>
>
>
> *Dani: *do we want to continue or just speak in two weeks?
>
>
>
> Decision was made to speak in two weeks.  Dani will reformat and send
> examples.
>
>
>
> [1] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1339
>
> [2] https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/html5.html
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Kyrce Swenson*
>
> Solutions Manager
> C4 Semantic Markup: Tooling & Players
> C5 Structured Authoring: Proofing
>
>
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