RE: Minutes 2017/05/11- DRAFT

Thank you very much Kyrce!



Dani



*From:* Swenson, Kyrce [mailto:kyrce.swenson@pearson.com]
*Sent:* jueves, 11 de mayo de 2017 19:19
*To:* public-mathonwebpages@w3.org
*Subject:* Minutes 2017/05/11- DRAFT



*Topic:* Layout

*Attendees: *Peter Krauzberger, Daniel Marques, Jean Kaplansky, Volker
Sorge, Sam Dooley, Charles LaPierre,  Kyrce Swenson

*Scribe:* Kyrce Swenson



-----



*Peter: *What can improve and give feedback on layout requirements so that
other web standards can be influenced by the WG?



Collect use cases.



Some contact already with the CSS working group, Including actual issue
that MathJAX needs to respond to.



Link in issue to codepen example to sketch out the basic problem: [1] Two
dimensional content in inline content. Must be aligned with the baseline.
In CSS only the top or the bottom can be aligned to the baseline.. No tools
for something like a simple fraction, etc. This example was trying to
explain this problem. Current solutions all require manual baseline fixing
and shifts.



This takes time and adds complexity. We need a way to tell CSS what should
be at the baseline level.



*Dani**: *The limits of the technology are MathJAX and we can use MathML
directly in FF, and there are solutions from Wiris. Be able to do
mathematics using only html5 + css. We need to be able to tell the CSS
people to convince them.



*Peter: *

there's also KaTeX, MathQuill, and a bunch of hobby projects.



*Peter* identify use cases that are broader than mathematical. Example:
aligned SVGs inline because they had some textual content. Wanted to align
the text not the image  [2]



Little chance that this will be something only math needs. These challenges
are interesting in a general sense as well.



*Volker: *Right now we are talking about vertical growth not ascenders and
descenders growing. More serious problem: Left to Right layout you have to
change the layout while you are rendering a stretchy character.  Hard to
describe but obvious when i see it.



Fraction as a vertical shift. Potentiallyl two directions. To render a line
you go from the left to the right. Once the fraction grows then you have to
go back and start stretching your brackets,  or similar. Not supported by
CSS.



*Jean:  *re: CSS and the need to go forward and back... You're talking
about multiple runs through to create one rendition.



Browsers don't do this stuff. Formatting engines do.



I could see mathJax or a web service doing this, but think the browser
vendors will kick and scream over the request.



*Volker: * So meaning that there's no reason to have this in the CSS spec?
Yes they will but there might be other ways of doing this. How do I style
my parent element based on whether or not it has a particular child?



*Jean: *Choose your battles? Do you think you can get vendors on board with
it in the spec?



Right. Conditional stuff. But again - its the ability to look forward and
look back.



*Volker: *goal to get things in the spec? or figure out what is needed?



Browsers aren't good at looking forward and look back in declarative
languages.



*Peter: *First step to collect what problems we see. But next steps are to
identify the right pieces to tackle. Might be more sensible to solve with
SVG group.



*Dani:  *Better to discuss how to discuss the examples? Wiki?



*Peter: *just use the github issue tracker with a label -- individual
issues labeled as layout.



*Jean: *Thumbs up for a wiki - maybe a github page?

Why not a github wiki page so we can see everything in context?



*Peter: *does not allow to inject CSS. Not enough control.



*Dani: *what is the idea to work collaboratively? people just fetch the
file and edit it?



*Peter:* just go to edit file and make a pull request? Lots of things
available via the web interface.



*Dani: * better to have each of its problems on its own page.



*Peter: *if we split it on the issue tracker we can actually help people
give feedback if they think it is a priority to them.  Not expecting
hundreds of people however.



*Dani*: at the point that something is written, more people who are
interested will join.



[Peter had to leave. ]



*Dani: *do we want to continue or just speak in two weeks?



Decision was made to speak in two weeks.  Dani will reformat and send
examples.



[1] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1339

[2] https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/html5.html



-- 

*Kyrce Swenson*

Solutions Manager
C4 Semantic Markup: Tooling & Players
C5 Structured Authoring: Proofing



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