- From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 00:56:42 +0900
- To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
- Message-ID: <44BE563A.9010702@w3.org>
... are at http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html and below
as text.
- Felix
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
i18n ITS working group
19 Jul 2006
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0073.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-irc
Attendees
Present
Christian, Felix, Goutam, Richard, Yves
Regrets
Andrzej, Sebastian
Chair
Yves
Scribe
Felix
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]i18n core comments
2. [6]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3464
3. [7]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3463
4. [8]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3462
5. [9]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3460
6. [10]comment 17 at
http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
7. [11]comment 18
8. [12]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3459
9. [13]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3458
10. [14]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3457
11. [15]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3456
12. [16]additional calls
13. [17]language related issues
14. [18]editorial change:
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473
15. [19]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3479
16. [20]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3480
17. [21]"translatability" renaming
* [22]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
Hi Yves, we just got a reply from the HTML WG, see
[23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0
059.html . I would like to propose a joint call to them, would that
be fine with you?
[23]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0059.html
<YvesS> I suppose. When?
I'll have to check their and our availablity. I'll write a reply
<YvesS> ok
i18n core comments
<YvesS>
[24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0
069.html
[24]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0069.html
Yves: we started discussion already
... we did 3466 which is about ruby markup
[25]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3464
[25] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3464
"Allowing for xpath expressions to point to term definitions"
Yves: maybe we did not see that use case comming
... it would work the same way as the locInfoPointer attribute
... it would resolve Richard's case?
Richard: not sure
... there was a difference between locInfoPointer and
termInfoPointer
Yves: the mechanisms are the same, only what they point to
Richard: locInfoPointer points to an attribute with an URI?
Yves: no, you are reffering to locInfoRefPointer
... locInfoPointer points to the localization information
... in the case of termInfoRef, the terminology information
Richard: how about a local version of this?
Felix: that is: local XPath?
Richard: yes
Yves: if we have termInfoPointer, we
... should also have a local attribute for the other data categories
Felix: we had never local attributes for pointing
Richard: would be fine with me not having a local pointer attribute
Christian: agree as well
[26]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3463
[26] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3463
Yves: that would be resolved if we had termInfoPointer
... because we could use the ID function of XPath
Richard: it is a bit complicated to do it that way
<YvesS> terminfopointer="id(@def)"
Yves: the termInfoPointer takes the value of the @def attributes and
returns the node, e.g. the <termdef> node
... it is not very difficult to write
Richard: looks simpler than other examples I saw
Yves: the ID function works only if you have a DTD
Felix: it would work also for XML Schema, for RELAX NG it relies on
optional features
Yves: it works with XPath 1.0 as well
... everybody fine with that solution?
[Yves and Richard go through the example terminfopointer="id(@def)"
again]
Richard: this is a new attribute in the spec?
Yves: yes, in the termRule element
<YvesS> example:
[27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0
064.html
[27]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0064.html
Felix: it is a new application of an existing mechanism, which we
have e.g. for locInfoPointer
Yves: for me, it is like an oversight
[28]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3462
[28] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3462
"pointing to terms"
Yves: some rewording basically
Richard: it is editorial / substantive is ansue
Yves: I see no issue with the rewording
Christian, Felix: fine
[29]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3460
[29] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3460
Yves: everybody agreed with the proposal to change the names of the
attributes
... we also agree on the proposal at
[30]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3461
[30] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3461
comment 17 at [31]http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
[31] http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
Yves reads the comment
Yves: I would be fine with that
comment 18
Richard: this comment at
[32]http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/ tries to be
more precise for termInfo
[32] http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
Yves: I am fine with your text proposal
Richard: the text bit:
[[We think that we should say that the information at the end of the
termInfo
link is a definition or relevant text to support the understanding
of the term
identified.
]]
[[If we are too vague about what is pointed to, we will lose the
advantage we
were aiming for of tools understanding what the ITS markup is
saying.
]]
Yves: the resolution: we will propose some concrete text for our
answer
Richard: that would be o.k., there is no need to change the name of
the attribute
Christian: you summarized last Friday discussion good, by saying
pointing to a definition is not the only case
[33]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3459
[33] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3459
"Use of elements"
Richard: this comment is not only related to locInfo, but also to
the span element
Yves: yes
<r12a> and any others with natural language text
Yves: we would allow span within span
... and span inside locInfo, and look into other places where you
have translatable information in ITS
Richard: we don't have a termDef to allow for definitions
Yves: what I am not sure about: what about ruby markup?
... does it make sense to have span within ruby markup?
Richard: Felix said at the last call that you can have inline
elements in ruby text
... so people can do that, so they also can put a span in the text
Yves: does it make sense to allow ruby markup in locInfo elements?
Richard: that is a different question whether you put span into ruby
Yves: yes
Felix: having ruby with span is conform to the notion of "inline
elements" described in the ruby TR
Richard: but you would have to need to change the spec, since you
need to add span to the content model
<scribe> ACTION: Yves to look check what ITS elements can contain
text and whether having inline elements makes sense for them
[recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
[35]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3458
[35] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3458
Yves: you asked to say "the default for translation is yes"
... we already wrote what the defaults would be
Felix: this is an oversight, we had defaults in our implementations
already
[36]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3457
[36] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3457
Yves: you proposed to use BCP 47
Richard: We could just say "BCP 47", without "its successor"
... the BCP 47 is always for language, but it is represented by
different RFCs
Yves: all whose things are not official standards?
Richard: there are two RFCs which wait for assignment of RFC numbers
Yves: is it o.k. to mention them officially?
Richard: you don't refer to them via the RFC number, but via the BCP
number
... which is stable
[37]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3456
[37] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3456
Yves: I proposed a small addition that would follow the text
"It is generally recommended to avoid using attribute to store text,
however,
in this specific case, the need to provide the notes without
interfering with
the structure of the host document is outweighing the drawbacks of
using an
attribute.
Richard: this is for local use?
Yves: yes
Richard: people who write a new format might say "let's use
attributes"
... which is bad for new formats
Yves: its:locInfo is only the "fallback" if you don't have the
locInfo markup in your own schema
Richard: is it clear here?
Yves: it is made clear in the guideline / BP document
... the guidelines will say what
Felix: how about linking the BP and the ITS spec in this case?
Richard: I'm not sure
... the ITS spec sounds like "if I want to have locNotes, I use the
attributes"
... whereas elements would be preferable
... so at least you have to say: "don't just copy locInfo"
additional calls
Yves: Richard, you said that you would be available on Friday,
Monday, next Wednesday?
Richard: yes
Christian: Friday is fine, I'll check Monday
<YvesS>
[38]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&
order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=ITS
[38]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=ITS
language related issues
Richard: let's look at
[39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0
072.html in the next meeting
[39]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0072.html
editorial change:
[40]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473
[40] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473
<GoutamSaha> Good Night, Felix, Yves, Richard and All
<GoutamSaha> Bye
Richard: Yves proposal at
[41]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473 sounds good
[41] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473
Felix: +1
[42]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3479
[42] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3479
Richard describes his text proposal
Yves: fine with me
Felix: +1
[43]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3480
[43] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3480
Richard: also good for the next meeting
"translatability" renaming
Yves: you want to reserve translatability for things which make
translation easier
... but there are other contexts
... translatability is about what is translatable
Richard: translatability enables translation
<r12a> sorry, i got cut off
<r12a> and now it's saying that the passcode is no longer valid
maybe we adjourn?
<r12a> i guess we should
<YvesS> ok
o.k., thanks a lot!
<r12a> and take this up again in the nex tmtg
<YvesS> thank for the extra time
o.k.
<r12a> cheers
[44]http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
[44] http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
[45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-policy-eds/2006Jul
/0053.html
[45]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-policy-eds/2006Jul/0053.html
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Yves to look check what ITS elements can contain text
and whether having inline elements makes sense for them [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
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Received on Wednesday, 19 July 2006 15:57:04 UTC