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[I18N ITS] Teleconference Minutes 2006-07-19

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 00:56:42 +0900
Message-ID: <44BE563A.9010702@w3.org>
To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
... are at http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html and below
as text.


- Felix



   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                        i18n ITS working group

19 Jul 2006

   [2]Agenda

      [2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0073.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Christian, Felix, Goutam, Richard, Yves

   Regrets
          Andrzej, Sebastian

   Chair
          Yves

   Scribe
          Felix

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]i18n core comments
         2. [6]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3464
         3. [7]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3463
         4. [8]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3462
         5. [9]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3460
         6. [10]comment 17 at
            http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
         7. [11]comment 18
         8. [12]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3459
         9. [13]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3458
        10. [14]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3457
        11. [15]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3456
        12. [16]additional calls
        13. [17]language related issues
        14. [18]editorial change:
            http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473
        15. [19]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3479
        16. [20]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3480
        17. [21]"translatability" renaming
     * [22]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   Hi Yves, we just got a reply from the HTML WG, see
   [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0
   059.html . I would like to propose a joint call to them, would that
   be fine with you?

     [23]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0059.html

   <YvesS> I suppose. When?

   I'll have to check their and our availablity. I'll write a reply

   <YvesS> ok

i18n core comments

   <YvesS>
   [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0
   069.html

     [24]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0069.html

   Yves: we started discussion already
   ... we did 3466 which is about ruby markup

[25]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3464

     [25] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3464

   "Allowing for xpath expressions to point to term definitions"

   Yves: maybe we did not see that use case comming
   ... it would work the same way as the locInfoPointer attribute
   ... it would resolve Richard's case?

   Richard: not sure
   ... there was a difference between locInfoPointer and
   termInfoPointer

   Yves: the mechanisms are the same, only what they point to

   Richard: locInfoPointer points to an attribute with an URI?

   Yves: no, you are reffering to locInfoRefPointer
   ... locInfoPointer points to the localization information
   ... in the case of termInfoRef, the terminology information

   Richard: how about a local version of this?

   Felix: that is: local XPath?

   Richard: yes

   Yves: if we have termInfoPointer, we
   ... should also have a local attribute for the other data categories

   Felix: we had never local attributes for pointing

   Richard: would be fine with me not having a local pointer attribute

   Christian: agree as well

[26]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3463

     [26] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3463

   Yves: that would be resolved if we had termInfoPointer
   ... because we could use the ID function of XPath

   Richard: it is a bit complicated to do it that way

   <YvesS> terminfopointer="id(@def)"

   Yves: the termInfoPointer takes the value of the @def attributes and
   returns the node, e.g. the <termdef> node
   ... it is not very difficult to write

   Richard: looks simpler than other examples I saw

   Yves: the ID function works only if you have a DTD

   Felix: it would work also for XML Schema, for RELAX NG it relies on
   optional features

   Yves: it works with XPath 1.0 as well
   ... everybody fine with that solution?

   [Yves and Richard go through the example terminfopointer="id(@def)"
   again]

   Richard: this is a new attribute in the spec?

   Yves: yes, in the termRule element

   <YvesS> example:
   [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0
   064.html

     [27]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0064.html

   Felix: it is a new application of an existing mechanism, which we
   have e.g. for locInfoPointer

   Yves: for me, it is like an oversight

[28]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3462

     [28] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3462

   "pointing to terms"

   Yves: some rewording basically

   Richard: it is editorial / substantive is ansue

   Yves: I see no issue with the rewording

   Christian, Felix: fine

[29]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3460

     [29] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3460

   Yves: everybody agreed with the proposal to change the names of the
   attributes
   ... we also agree on the proposal at
   [30]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3461

     [30] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3461

comment 17 at [31]http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/

     [31] http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/

   Yves reads the comment

   Yves: I would be fine with that

comment 18

   Richard: this comment at
   [32]http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/ tries to be
   more precise for termInfo

     [32] http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/

   Yves: I am fine with your text proposal

   Richard: the text bit:

   [[We think that we should say that the information at the end of the
   termInfo

   link is a definition or relevant text to support the understanding
   of the term

   identified.

   ]]

   [[If we are too vague about what is pointed to, we will lose the
   advantage we

   were aiming for of tools understanding what the ITS markup is
   saying.

   ]]

   Yves: the resolution: we will propose some concrete text for our
   answer

   Richard: that would be o.k., there is no need to change the name of
   the attribute

   Christian: you summarized last Friday discussion good, by saying
   pointing to a definition is not the only case

[33]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3459

     [33] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3459

   "Use of elements"

   Richard: this comment is not only related to locInfo, but also to
   the span element

   Yves: yes

   <r12a> and any others with natural language text

   Yves: we would allow span within span
   ... and span inside locInfo, and look into other places where you
   have translatable information in ITS

   Richard: we don't have a termDef to allow for definitions

   Yves: what I am not sure about: what about ruby markup?
   ... does it make sense to have span within ruby markup?

   Richard: Felix said at the last call that you can have inline
   elements in ruby text
   ... so people can do that, so they also can put a span in the text

   Yves: does it make sense to allow ruby markup in locInfo elements?

   Richard: that is a different question whether you put span into ruby

   Yves: yes

   Felix: having ruby with span is conform to the notion of "inline
   elements" described in the ruby TR

   Richard: but you would have to need to change the spec, since you
   need to add span to the content model

   <scribe> ACTION: Yves to look check what ITS elements can contain
   text and whether having inline elements makes sense for them
   [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]

[35]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3458

     [35] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3458

   Yves: you asked to say "the default for translation is yes"
   ... we already wrote what the defaults would be

   Felix: this is an oversight, we had defaults in our implementations
   already

[36]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3457

     [36] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3457

   Yves: you proposed to use BCP 47

   Richard: We could just say "BCP 47", without "its successor"
   ... the BCP 47 is always for language, but it is represented by
   different RFCs

   Yves: all whose things are not official standards?

   Richard: there are two RFCs which wait for assignment of RFC numbers

   Yves: is it o.k. to mention them officially?

   Richard: you don't refer to them via the RFC number, but via the BCP
   number
   ... which is stable

[37]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3456

     [37] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3456

   Yves: I proposed a small addition that would follow the text

   "It is generally recommended to avoid using attribute to store text,
   however,

   in this specific case, the need to provide the notes without
   interfering with

   the structure of the host document is outweighing the drawbacks of
   using an

   attribute.

   Richard: this is for local use?

   Yves: yes

   Richard: people who write a new format might say "let's use
   attributes"
   ... which is bad for new formats

   Yves: its:locInfo is only the "fallback" if you don't have the
   locInfo markup in your own schema

   Richard: is it clear here?

   Yves: it is made clear in the guideline / BP document
   ... the guidelines will say what

   Felix: how about linking the BP and the ITS spec in this case?

   Richard: I'm not sure
   ... the ITS spec sounds like "if I want to have locNotes, I use the
   attributes"
   ... whereas elements would be preferable
   ... so at least you have to say: "don't just copy locInfo"

additional calls

   Yves: Richard, you said that you would be available on Friday,
   Monday, next Wednesday?

   Richard: yes

   Christian: Friday is fine, I'll check Monday

   <YvesS>
   [38]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&
   order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=ITS

     [38]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=ITS

language related issues

   Richard: let's look at
   [39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0
   072.html in the next meeting

     [39]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0072.html

editorial change:
[40]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473

     [40] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473

   <GoutamSaha> Good Night, Felix, Yves, Richard and All

   <GoutamSaha> Bye

   Richard: Yves proposal at
   [41]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473 sounds good

     [41] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473

   Felix: +1

[42]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3479

     [42] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3479

   Richard describes his text proposal

   Yves: fine with me

   Felix: +1

[43]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3480

     [43] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3480

   Richard: also good for the next meeting

"translatability" renaming

   Yves: you want to reserve translatability for things which make
   translation easier
   ... but there are other contexts
   ... translatability is about what is translatable

   Richard: translatability enables translation

   <r12a> sorry, i got cut off

   <r12a> and now it's saying that the passcode is no longer valid

   maybe we adjourn?

   <r12a> i guess we should

   <YvesS> ok

   o.k., thanks a lot!

   <r12a> and take this up again in the nex tmtg

   <YvesS> thank for the extra time

   o.k.

   <r12a> cheers

   [44]http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/

     [44] http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/

   [45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-policy-eds/2006Jul
   /0053.html

     [45]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-policy-eds/2006Jul/0053.html

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Yves to look check what ITS elements can contain text
   and whether having inline elements makes sense for them [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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