- From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:36:44 -0000
- To: "GEO" <public-i18n-geo@w3.org>
Minutes GEO Face to Face: 2005-03-04 [This obsoletes the email with subject "Minutes 2005-02-09: GEO FTF: 2005-03-04"] Location: Boston, Massachusetts, USA Scribe: Deborah Cawkwell Times are in GMT/UTC Attendees: Richard Ishida (Chair I18N GEO), Deborah Cawkwell (BBC World Service), Martin Duerst (W3C I18N activity lead), Susan K Miller (Boeing), Russ Rolfe (Microsoft), Felix Sasaki (W3C) Attending via IRC: Andrew Cunningham Regrets: none NEW ACTIONS ----------- ACTION: All, keep thinking about site user scenarios & email with other thoughts ACTION: RI, add back-to-the-top link to pages at headings ACTION: RI, in new style for site redesign, left align horizontal links below top hat that point to key site anchor ACTION: RI, when pointing to list of translations in new site design, add '(translations)' after a suitable graphic Session Start: Fri Mar 04 14:08:58 2005 Session Ident: #i18n [14:10] * deborah has joined #i18n [14:12] * Susan has joined #i18n [14:15] * russ has joined #i18n [14:15] DAY 2 GEO SITE USER SCENARIOS ----------------------- [14:16] GEO site user scenarios identify user scenarios for GEO site including different levels [14:16] cf Susan's getting started. [14:16] Usability [14:16] Who is using the site? [14:16] What info ar ethey interested in? [14:17] Scenario = task-based analysis - Observation of users? [14:17] how? [14:17] * Najib has joined #i18N [14:19] identification of tasks [14:19] personas [14:23] Leslie Fountain has done usability testing [14:24] But not deeper testing [14:24] But do we have time [14:25] With surveys we can ask people what they want [14:25] which would save time re identifying the tasks [14:26] The big question: how formally? [14:26] WAI team done it very formally [14:26] taken over a year [14:26] but useful to think about who we are aiming at [14:27] can we get feedback from developers within our organisations [14:27] we could derive a number of tasks for people [14:27] usability experts says you can use as few as 8 people [14:29] can people find the stuff [14:30] 1) audience - people we're trying to get stuff too [14:30] 2) can they find it [14:30] what material should we be developing & how do we get that material to people? [14:31] material not always via website [14:31] sometimes via outreach such as Richard's presentations [14:31] * Susan has quit IRC (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)) [14:32] <AndrewC> to my way of thinking, the website would tend to be a resource for developers looking for solutions [14:32] <deborah> as opposed to? [14:33] <AndrewC> its also a resource for tutorials and traiining ideas ... ofr instance [14:33] <AndrewC> locally, i'll need to develop a trraining program teaching web dev skills to community organisations [14:33] <AndrewC> it will need to incorporate and focus on design of Arabic web pages [14:34] <r12a> andrew, we were saying that the types of people are probably in this list http://esw.w3.org/topic/geogoals [14:34] <r12a> would be good to refine that list [14:35] <AndrewC> i'd probbaly add educators/trainers to the list as well, although not usre if its a target group we've reached yet [14:35] * Susan has joined #i18n [14:36] <Susan> http://www.stcsig.org/usability/topics/articles/ucd%20_web_devel.html#2-know-users [14:39] * matthieu has joined #i18n [14:40] Thinking about users in terms of the people we work with [14:40] Najib uses material for his students [14:42] HTML tutorial by Dave Raggett - good example [14:42] Najib emphasis on need for tutorials [14:42] for beginners [14:43] needs to be easier to understand [14:44] how do students who access the site use the information? [14:45] for required courses [14:45] <r12a> najib, uses printed form [14:45] <AndrewC> translated tutorials [14:46] do the students use the site themselves [14:46] or does Najib give them the info? [14:48] requirement for printing [14:48] Russ [14:48] 2 types of people [14:48] developers creating tools using W3C technologies [14:48] eg IE [14:49] they would be looking for information to better understand the standards [14:49] doesn't think we've really addressed them [14:50] 2nd type using web to put content & services out [14:50] if someone is looking for something & can't find it they come & ask Russ [14:50] about 80% character encodings [14:51] should I use NCRs? [14:51] I need to deal with a locale [14:51] I need to deal with a time [14:51] How do I go from web page to database [14:51] using forms to gather information [14:52] number formatting [14:52] from W3C point of view, there isn't currently a technology [14:53] since stuff exists on character encoding, why do they come to Russ? [14:53] they don't realise the site is there [14:53] they also might use Russ' internal MS site [14:53] then there is MS external site [14:53] these would be their 1st & 2nd ports of call [14:53] GEO maybe 3rd [14:54] tool builders need more focus: community we are not addressing [14:54] * MJDuerst has joined #i18n [14:55] how do we publicise the availability of the resource [14:55] until we do the outreach, how can we get useful feedback [14:55] we are very close to it, so hard to judge its usability [14:57] Najib - one day seminar to explain i18n issues & gather questions [14:57] Susan [14:58] Getting started describes the people at Boeing [14:58] highly experienced content developers but who don't know about i18n [14:59] in getting started section [14:59] managers' information [14:59] not nec for direct access by them [14:59] but for other people to use to feed them information [15:00] Boeing devs used W3C site for major accessibility site [15:01] Top 3 resources [15:01] Google, MSN Search, Yahoo [15:02] Use of search [15:04] With search return title needs to identify subject of article clearly [15:05] How do we push information up search return page list [15:05] Look for guidelines on search [15:05] what is missing: [15:06] Russ said forms, time/date [15:06] how tos [15:07] when does explanation get out of scope, eg, when is it about the technology? [15:07] when should site point off? [15:07] to MS Global Dev [15:09] deborah [15:09] need clear how to's with no jargon [15:10] want to know how to do things, eg. about language tags & how use [15:10] need explanations, eg. encodings [15:10] manager oriented explanations are also important [15:12] deborah points people to site to convinve them to do things, or that things can be done [15:12] quick overview - why this is important [15:13] people might take overview to managers to explain [15:13] what are the issues we have? [15:14] what are the major barriers when using the site? [15:14] susan: no clear path through for unexperienced users [15:14] deborah: can't find things [15:14] classifying things by resource type isn't helpful [15:16] task: how do I localise/i18n my site? [15:18] Susan would have a straight-forward list of how to i18n your site with clear steps [15:19] <r12a> "how do i internationalize my site?" [15:19] whole answers do not lie within W3C? ie in relation to tools [15:20] conflict of what is sought & what we are offering [15:21] in topic index, not clear how subjects fit together [15:21] no overview [15:22] what happens if you click on Technique index? [15:26] too many lists [15:26] cf O'Reilly cookbook [15:28] what order should I do things in? [15:28] before I round the corners, how do I build the box? [15:34] Getting Started could be a start point - might offer lessons that could be applied to the whole site / GEO material [15:34] <Najib> What about I18N in 7 points? (or 18) [15:34] How does Russ develop the MS Global Dev site? [15:34] 4 people providing content [15:35] a lot of content came from a book they wrote [15:36] 11000 page book involved 46 people [15:36] Russ edited [15:39] ingrediants: W3C spec [15:40] cake: specific task [15:40] meal: complete product [15:40] meal analogy [15:41] ACTION: All, keep thinking about this... & email with other thoughts [15:42] [coffee] [15:47] * Najib has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [16:02] Russ & Deborah: gather more info about text direction, UA behaviour, scrollbar position, etc SITE REDESIGN ------------- [16:03] <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/2005/02/i18n-redesign/home.png [16:04] Talked about identifying the user of our information [16:04] Important: Getting Started, searching [16:05] We feel we need not only a topic & technique index [16:05] In addition: what do I need to do to i18n? [16:07] Resource types list on i18n list is not useful. [16:08] Shawn Henry joined the group [16:08] from WAI - talks about WAI site-redesign experience [16:08] primary goal was making site itself accessible [16:08] had prof usability help from AIR [16:10] Shawn describes herself as one of our users [16:10] wants to be able to access the information quickly & easily [16:11] * Najib has joined #i18N [16:12] <r12a> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ut2/ [16:13] most of what WAI does, has very concrete basis [16:13] nav on left with base info [16:13] people weren't finding other documents [16:13] lot of links into the site [16:14] nav needs to be there to clearly show what is avail across the whole WAI site [16:14] tried expanding, collapsing menu [16:14] on current WAI site [16:14] have page: WAI resources [16:15] horribly organised [16:15] but people liked annotated text [16:15] in new site using a lot of annotated navigation [16:15] wanted to encourage exploration [16:16] WAI home page [16:16] problem: people don't know what WAI does [16:16] think it's closed, US-based [16:16] detrimental to goals [16:16] wanted to clarify upfront [16:16] wanted it to be easy to see [16:17] but easy to mask out once you've seen i9t [16:17] if you are frequent user [16:17] this is why what wai is is on the right-hand side [16:17] as opposed to in the top middle [16:17] also wanted to get announcements at top [16:18] Distinction between Announcements & Highlights [16:18] Announcements is 'timely' [16:20] Nav on GEO site always in same place [16:21] for WAI in-page nav can be in a different place (is always?) [16:26] for WAI re-design, focus on WAI issues [16:26] did also talk about i18n re-design [16:27] i18n & WAI are probably closest in terms of how website is used [16:27] concerned if some fundamental stuff different, eg GEO site navigation [16:28] WAI site seen as v hierarchically ordered by RI [16:28] So much stuff in i18n site, cannot be presented like this [16:29] using indices to get to the same information [16:30] http://www.w3.org/International/2005/02/i18n-redesign/home.png [16:30] * shawn has joined #i18n [16:30] new design shown - GEO home page [16:31] desire for as much shortcut information above the fold as possible [16:31] feedback welcomed [16:31] but design by committee not seen as useful [16:34] would be useful to add a sitemap [16:34] doesn't think that will go down as far as documents [16:35] conceptual, rather than physical [16:36] expanding / collapsing navigation [16:36] not on every page [16:36] real estate required for other things [16:36] on home page, nav stuff on left & on right [16:36] so that it's clearly demarkated from other pages [16:37] expert nav on left [16:38] <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/2005/02/i18n-redesign/level2.png [16:38] trying to make a clear distinction between 3 types of page [16:38] use yoyo effect [16:38] home page functions as a hub [16:39] site map nav consistent with home page - on rhs [16:40] what's on this nav is what's opportune at this time... [16:42] for WAI redesign more intermediate pages created by breaking up big pages of unrelated stuff [16:42] Rx feels good to scroll through long page [16:42] S: good usability test [16:43] * Retrieving #i18n info... [16:43] usability testing on the fly [16:44] S: jumped to sub section (near bottom), then wanted to return to list [16:44] major up-scrolling [16:44] a back-to-the-top link would help ACTION: RI, add back-to-the-top link to pages at headings [16:45] in re-design, pages broken up, longest page is quite short [16:48] Russ: site map is site content map [16:49] different to people's expectation of sitemap [16:49] not labelled as 'sitemap' [16:49] labelled 'on this site' [16:50] shouldn't be called a 'sitemap' [16:52] <Najib> There is not a "recommendation" of what is sitemap. [16:53] talking about navigation: not clear how all GEO info connected [16:53] always just had a big box of recipes, rather than an overview [16:53] that must be added [16:54] simple solution from Russ [16:54] know that trying to have as much info above the fold as possible [16:55] Horizontal nav for key anchor points of site [16:55] why right-aligned? [16:56] Russ argued for this nav info to be in lhs [16:56] established paradigm ACTION: RI, in new style for site redesign, left align horizontal links below top hat that point to key site anchor points [17:15] * Najib has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.3/20040910]) [17:16] * MJDuerst has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [17:17] [lunch] [17:22] * Najib has joined #i18N [17:27] * matthieu has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [17:31] * Najib has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer) [18:17] * russ has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [18:38] [Back from lunch] [18:40] how do i do that? [18:42] Use of Javascript [18:42] WAI will use on one page: sitemap [18:44] WAI changed a lot of stuff based on Rx's input [18:45] initial discussions, talked about 'abstract zoning' [18:47] Can i18n use same styling as WAI [18:48] attempt for WAI & i18n look to come closer [18:48] Susan Lesch from Communications team joined the meeting [18:49] translations in menu [18:49] if many, won't all fit [18:49] use a pull-down menu for this [18:50] in shortcuts, use of foreign language string to indicate a translation [18:51] needs more styling, to be more stylised [18:51] don't want to say 'we are (in) English & you guys are somewhere else' [18:52] translation graphic then text of page afterwards in brackets ACTION: RI, when pointing to list of translations in new site design, add '(translations)' after a suitable graphic [18:53] WAI changed 'getting started' because usability testing showed it was interpreted as 'getting started with WAI' QUESTIONNAIRES -------------- [18:53] intro of topic [18:53] some concnern don't know who is audience & whether we were serving their needs [18:54] easy obvious solution was to survey our audience [18:54] known that not popular [18:54] but don't know another fast easy way to do it [18:54] though we did consider using lists [18:54] thought recognize that that would be a skewed auidence [18:55] Shawn: first reaction [18:55] great that looking for feedback from audience [18:55] how would it be presented [18:56] below nav: couple of bullets [18:56] questions 1-5 [18:56] did you find what you were looking for? [18:56] how many have we ourselves seen AND filled out [18:56] questionnaire design in itself is quite challenging [18:56] questionnaires are self-reporting [18:57] its presence indicates that you're interested - sends a good message to users [18:57] could be added to articles too [18:57] interesting to [18:58] 1) put on IG list [18:58] 2) conference list [18:58] * Najib has joined #i18N [18:58] where are the people we want to get who aren't coming hanging out [18:59] Shawn disclaimer: this is her opinion [18:59] 3) related lists [18:59] not backed up with research [19:00] had one on Boeing site for a while [19:00] know that people don't like it, so didn't keep it on for too long [19:01] usability says people are bad at self-reporting [19:01] people know things are rong, but often can't express that [19:02] do we think we could get info could act on [19:02] but could find out more about who they are [19:02] would guess 90% of them are developers writing pages [19:02] who are you? [19:02] is there something you were looking forward that you didn't find? [19:03] what would you do with that data? [19:03] Sx would expect to get some confirmation of continuing or not in the same direction [19:03] worries about data for data's sake [19:04] eg Sx's work on Getting Started. If no neophytes, which could be confirmed by the survey, then this wouldn't be worth doing [19:04] but self-reporting issue [19:05] if 100% responses = experts, that doesn't entail all audience is expert [19:05] who were the WAI users [19:05] WAI doesn't have statistical numbers [19:05] most people who come don't know anything about it [19:06] based on informal number [19:06] how did WAI go about deciding who you were [19:06] going to focus on [19:06] WAI EO group is 20 active participants [19:06] some new, some long-standing [19:07] http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/ [19:08] much more formal process than for most people [19:08] usability specialists on the group [19:09] http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2003/analysis-sum#users [19:12] http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2003/users#implications [19:14] People WAI want to attract are newbies [19:15] W3C newsletter to include questionnaire a few months from now [19:15] opportunity to reach a wide audience [19:15] also site comments [19:15] 3/4 per week [19:17] * MJDuerst has joined #i18n [19:17] WAI stuff buried in TR pages [19:18] gems that WAI have people can't find [19:18] very useful meeting, but lots more work for Rx [19:18] logo [19:19] 6 minutes left before Rx must leave for another meeting [19:21] could there be a logo [19:21] could i18n requirements be included in the tool [19:21] would have to have very clear evaluations [19:21] WAI has these [19:22] self-reporting [19:22] people tend to over-state by 1 1/2 [19:22] clarification: inclusion in validation tool, cf HTML, CSS [19:23] value of logo a mark of interest & support for i18n [19:23] could link to i18n site [19:23] means of promotion [19:26] [break] NAJIB PRESENTS ON TRANSLATION ISSUES ------------------------------------ [21:12] NT presentation re issues for translation, etc. DISCUSSION OF GLOBAL GATEWAY PULL-DOWN MENUS -------------------------------------------- [19:29] Review of John Yunker's article - see wiki versions for minutes of discussion [19:40] Global Gateway Pull-downs [19:49] * Najib has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.3/20040910]) [21:22] work on WIKI - http://esw.w3.org/topic/geoFaq1 - see wiki versions for minutes of discussion [21:23] * Najib has joined #i18N [21:29] * AndrewC has left #i18n [21:30] * apphillips has joined #i18n [21:39] * Susan has quit IRC (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)) [21:56] * Najib has quit IRC (Client exited) [22:00] * Najib has joined #i18N [22:05] * MJDuerst has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [22:07] * Najib has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.3/20040910]) [22:18] * deborah has left #i18n [22:21] * MJDuerst has joined #i18n [Meeting ends] http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. 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Received on Thursday, 17 March 2005 09:36:47 UTC