W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-i18n-geo@w3.org > March 2005

Minutes 2005-03-04: GEO FTF

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:36:44 -0000
To: "GEO" <public-i18n-geo@w3.org>
Message-Id: <20050317093644.E87D84F007@homer.w3.org>

Minutes GEO Face to Face: 2005-03-04

[This obsoletes the email with subject "Minutes 2005-02-09: GEO FTF: 2005-03-04"]

Location: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
Scribe: Deborah Cawkwell
Times are in GMT/UTC
Attendees: Richard Ishida (Chair I18N GEO), Deborah Cawkwell (BBC World Service), Martin Duerst (W3C I18N activity lead), Susan K Miller (Boeing), Russ Rolfe (Microsoft), Felix Sasaki (W3C)
Attending via IRC: Andrew Cunningham
Regrets: none

ACTION: All, keep thinking about site user scenarios & email with other thoughts
ACTION: RI, add back-to-the-top link to pages at headings
ACTION: RI, in new style for site redesign, left align horizontal links below top hat that point to key site anchor 
ACTION: RI, when pointing to list of translations in new site design, add '(translations)' after a suitable graphic

Session Start: Fri Mar 04 14:08:58 2005
Session Ident: #i18n
[14:10] * deborah has joined #i18n
[14:12] * Susan has joined #i18n
[14:15] * russ has joined #i18n
[14:15]  DAY 2

[14:16]  GEO site user scenarios identify user scenarios for GEO site including different levels 
[14:16]  cf Susan's getting started.
[14:16]  Usability 
[14:16]  Who is using the site?
[14:16]  What info ar ethey interested in?
[14:17]  Scenario = task-based analysis - Observation of users? 
[14:17]  how?
[14:17] * Najib has joined #i18N
[14:19]  identification of tasks
[14:19]  personas
[14:23]  Leslie Fountain has done usability testing 
[14:24]  But not deeper testing
[14:24]  But do we have time
[14:25]  With surveys we can ask people what they want
[14:25]  which would save time re identifying the tasks
[14:26]  The big question: how formally?
[14:26]  WAI team done it very formally
[14:26]  taken over a year 
[14:26]  but useful to think about who we are aiming at
[14:27]  can we get feedback from developers within our organisations
[14:27]  we could derive a number of tasks for people
[14:27]  usability experts says you can use as few as 8 people
[14:29]  can people find the stuff
[14:30]  1) audience - people we're trying to get stuff too
[14:30]  2) can they find it
[14:30]  what material should we be developing & how do we get that material to people?
[14:31]  material not always via website 
[14:31]  sometimes via outreach such as Richard's presentations
[14:31] * Susan has quit IRC (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
[14:32] <AndrewC> to my way of thinking, the website would tend to be a resource for developers looking for solutions
[14:32] <deborah> as opposed to?
[14:33] <AndrewC> its also a resource for tutorials and traiining ideas ... ofr instance
[14:33] <AndrewC> locally, i'll need to develop a trraining program teaching web dev skills to community organisations
[14:33] <AndrewC> it will need to incorporate and focus on design of Arabic web pages
[14:34] <r12a> andrew, we were saying that the types of people are probably in this list http://esw.w3.org/topic/geogoals
[14:34] <r12a> would be good to refine that list
[14:35] <AndrewC> i'd probbaly add educators/trainers to the list as well, although not usre if its a target group we've reached yet
[14:35] * Susan has joined #i18n
[14:36] <Susan> http://www.stcsig.org/usability/topics/articles/ucd%20_web_devel.html#2-know-users
[14:39] * matthieu has joined #i18n
[14:40]  Thinking about users in terms of the people we work with 

[14:40]  Najib uses material for his students
[14:42]  HTML tutorial by Dave Raggett - good example
[14:42]  Najib emphasis on need for tutorials 
[14:42]  for beginners
[14:43]  needs to be easier to understand
[14:44]  how do students who access the site use the information?
[14:45]  for required courses
[14:45] <r12a> najib, uses printed form
[14:45] <AndrewC> translated tutorials
[14:46]  do the students use the site themselves
[14:46]  or does Najib give them the info?
[14:48]  requirement for printing

[14:48]  Russ
[14:48]  2 types of people
[14:48]  developers creating tools using W3C technologies
[14:48]  eg IE
[14:49]  they would be looking for information to better understand the standards
[14:49]  doesn't think we've really addressed them
[14:50]  2nd type using web to put content & services out
[14:50]  if someone is looking for something & can't find it they come & ask Russ
[14:50]  about 80% character encodings
[14:51]  should I use NCRs?
[14:51]  I need to deal with a locale
[14:51]  I need to deal with a time
[14:51]  How do I go from web page to database
[14:51]  using forms to gather information
[14:52]  number formatting
[14:52]  from W3C point of view, there isn't currently a technology
[14:53]  since stuff exists on character encoding, why do they come to Russ?
[14:53]  they don't realise the site is there
[14:53]  they also might use Russ' internal MS site
[14:53]  then there is MS external site
[14:53]  these would be their 1st & 2nd ports of call
[14:53]  GEO maybe 3rd
[14:54]  tool builders need more focus: community we are not addressing
[14:54] * MJDuerst has joined #i18n
[14:55]  how do we publicise the availability of the resource
[14:55]  until we do the outreach, how can we get useful feedback
[14:55]  we are very close to it, so hard to judge its usability
[14:57]  Najib - one day seminar to explain i18n issues & gather questions

[14:57]  Susan
[14:58]  Getting started describes the people at Boeing
[14:58]  highly experienced content developers but who don't know about i18n
[14:59]  in getting started section
[14:59]  managers' information
[14:59]  not nec for direct access by them 
[14:59]  but for other people to use to feed them information
[15:00]  Boeing devs used W3C site for major accessibility site
[15:01]  Top 3 resources
[15:01]  Google, MSN Search, Yahoo
[15:02]  Use of search
[15:04]  With search return title needs to identify subject of article clearly
[15:05]  How do we push information up search return page list
[15:05]  Look for guidelines on search
[15:05]  what is missing: 
[15:06]  Russ said forms, time/date
[15:06]  how tos
[15:07]  when does explanation get out of scope, eg, when is it about the technology?
[15:07]  when should site point off?
[15:07]  to MS Global Dev

[15:09] deborah
[15:09] need clear how to's with no jargon
[15:10] want to know how to do things, eg. about language tags & how use
[15:10] need explanations, eg. encodings
[15:10] manager oriented explanations are also important
[15:12] deborah points people to site to convinve them to do things, or that things can be done
[15:12]  quick overview - why this is important
[15:13]  people might take overview to managers to explain 

[15:13]  what are the issues we have?
[15:14] what are the major barriers when using the site?
[15:14] susan: no clear path through for unexperienced users
[15:14] deborah: can't find things
[15:14] classifying things by resource type isn't helpful
[15:16] task: how do I localise/i18n my site?
[15:18] Susan would have a straight-forward list of how to i18n your site with clear steps
[15:19] <r12a> "how do i internationalize my site?"
[15:19]  whole answers do not lie within W3C? ie in relation to tools
[15:20]  conflict of what is sought & what we are offering
[15:21]  in topic index, not clear how subjects fit together
[15:21]  no overview
[15:22]  what happens if you click on Technique index?
[15:26]  too many lists
[15:26]  cf O'Reilly cookbook
[15:28]  what order should I do things in?
[15:28]  before I round the corners, how do I build the box?
[15:34]  Getting Started could be a start point - might offer lessons that could be applied to the whole site / GEO material
[15:34] <Najib> What about I18N in 7 points? (or 18)
[15:34]  How does Russ develop the MS Global Dev site?
[15:34]  4 people providing content
[15:35]  a lot of content came from a book they wrote
[15:36]  11000 page book involved 46 people
[15:36]  Russ edited
[15:39]  ingrediants: W3C spec
[15:40]  cake: specific task
[15:40]  meal: complete product
[15:40]  meal analogy
[15:41]  ACTION: All, keep thinking about this... & email with other thoughts
[15:42]  [coffee]
[15:47] * Najib has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[16:02]  Russ & Deborah: gather more info about text direction, UA behaviour, scrollbar position, etc

[16:03] <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/2005/02/i18n-redesign/home.png
[16:04]  Talked about identifying the user of our information
[16:04]  Important: Getting Started, searching
[16:05]  We feel we need not only a topic & technique index
[16:05]  In addition: what do I need to do to i18n?
[16:07]  Resource types list on i18n list is not useful.

[16:08]  Shawn Henry joined the group
[16:08]  from WAI - talks about WAI site-redesign experience
[16:08]  primary goal was making site itself accessible
[16:08]  had prof usability help from AIR
[16:10]  Shawn describes herself as one of our users
[16:10]  wants to be able to access the information quickly & easily 
[16:11] * Najib has joined #i18N
[16:12] <r12a> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ut2/
[16:13]  most of what WAI does, has very concrete basis
[16:13]  nav on left with base info
[16:13]  people weren't finding other documents
[16:13]  lot of links into the site
[16:14]  nav needs to be there to clearly show what is avail across the whole WAI site
[16:14]  tried expanding, collapsing menu
[16:14]  on current WAI site 
[16:14]  have page: WAI resources
[16:15]  horribly organised 
[16:15]  but people liked annotated text
[16:15]  in new site using a lot of annotated navigation
[16:15]  wanted to encourage exploration
[16:16]  WAI home page
[16:16]  problem: people don't know what WAI does
[16:16]  think it's closed, US-based
[16:16]  detrimental to goals
[16:16]  wanted to clarify upfront
[16:16]  wanted it to be easy to see
[16:17]  but easy to mask out once you've seen i9t
[16:17]  if you are frequent user
[16:17]  this is why what wai is is on the right-hand side
[16:17]  as opposed to in the top middle
[16:17]  also wanted to get announcements at top
[16:18]  Distinction between Announcements & Highlights
[16:18]  Announcements is 'timely'
[16:20]  Nav on GEO site always in same place
[16:21]  for WAI in-page nav can be in a different place (is always?)
[16:26]  for WAI re-design, focus on WAI issues
[16:26]  did also talk about i18n re-design
[16:27]  i18n & WAI are probably closest in terms of how website is used
[16:27]  concerned if some fundamental stuff different, eg GEO site navigation
[16:28]  WAI site seen as v hierarchically ordered by RI
[16:28]  So much stuff in i18n site, cannot be presented like this
[16:29]  using indices to get to the same information 
[16:30]  http://www.w3.org/International/2005/02/i18n-redesign/home.png
[16:30] * shawn has joined #i18n
[16:30]  new design shown - GEO home page
[16:31]  desire for as much shortcut information above the fold as possible
[16:31]  feedback welcomed
[16:31]  but design by committee not seen as useful
[16:34]  would be useful to add a sitemap
[16:34]  doesn't think that will go down as far as documents
[16:35]  conceptual, rather than physical
[16:36]  expanding / collapsing navigation
[16:36]  not on every page
[16:36]  real estate required for other things
[16:36]  on home page, nav stuff on left & on right
[16:36]  so that it's clearly demarkated from other pages
[16:37]  expert nav on left
[16:38] <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/2005/02/i18n-redesign/level2.png
[16:38]  trying to make a clear distinction between 3 types of page
[16:38]  use yoyo effect
[16:38]  home page functions as a hub
[16:39]  site map nav consistent with home page - on rhs
[16:40]  what's on this nav is what's opportune at this time...
[16:42]  for WAI redesign more intermediate pages created by  breaking up big pages of unrelated stuff
[16:42]  Rx feels good to scroll through long page
[16:42]  S: good usability test
[16:43] * Retrieving #i18n info...
[16:43]  usability testing on the fly
[16:44]  S: jumped to sub section (near bottom), then wanted to return to list
[16:44]  major up-scrolling
[16:44]  a back-to-the-top link would help
ACTION: RI, add back-to-the-top link to pages at headings
[16:45]  in re-design, pages broken up, longest page is quite short
[16:48]  Russ: site map is site content map
[16:49]  different to people's expectation of sitemap
[16:49]  not labelled as 'sitemap'
[16:49]  labelled 'on this site'
[16:50]  shouldn't be called a 'sitemap'
[16:52] <Najib> There is not a "recommendation" of what is sitemap.
[16:53]  talking about navigation: not clear how all GEO info connected
[16:53]  always just had a big box of recipes, rather than an overview
[16:53]  that must be added 
[16:54]  simple solution from Russ
[16:54]  know that trying to have as much info above the fold as possible
[16:55]  Horizontal nav for key anchor points of site
[16:55]  why right-aligned?
[16:56]  Russ argued for this nav info to be in lhs 
[16:56]  established paradigm 
ACTION: RI, in new style for site redesign, left align horizontal links below top hat that point to key site anchor points
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[17:17]  [lunch]

[17:22] * Najib has joined #i18N
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[17:31] * Najib has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[18:17] * russ has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[18:38]  [Back from lunch]
[18:40]  how do i do that?
[18:42]  Use of Javascript
[18:42]  WAI will use on one page: sitemap
[18:44]  WAI changed a lot of stuff based on Rx's input
[18:45]  initial discussions, talked about 'abstract zoning'
[18:47]  Can i18n use same styling as WAI
[18:48]  attempt for WAI & i18n look to come closer
[18:48]  Susan Lesch from Communications team joined the meeting
[18:49]  translations in menu
[18:49]  if many, won't all fit
[18:49]  use a pull-down menu for this
[18:50]  in shortcuts, use of foreign language string to indicate a translation
[18:51]  needs more styling, to be more stylised
[18:51]  don't want to say 'we are (in) English & you guys are somewhere else'
[18:52]  translation graphic then text of page afterwards in brackets
ACTION: RI, when pointing to list of translations in new site design, add '(translations)' after a suitable graphic
[18:53]  WAI changed 'getting started' because usability testing showed it was interpreted as 'getting started with WAI'

[18:53]  intro of topic
[18:53]  some concnern don't know who is audience & whether we were serving their needs
[18:54]  easy obvious solution was to survey our audience
[18:54]  known that not popular 
[18:54]  but don't know another fast easy way to do it
[18:54]  though we did consider using lists
[18:54]  thought recognize that that would be a skewed auidence
[18:55]  Shawn: first reaction
[18:55]  great that looking for feedback from audience
[18:55]  how would it be presented
[18:56]  below nav: couple of bullets
[18:56]  questions 1-5
[18:56]  did you find what you were looking for?
[18:56]  how many have we ourselves seen AND filled out
[18:56]  questionnaire design in itself is quite challenging
[18:56]  questionnaires are self-reporting
[18:57]  its presence indicates that you're interested - sends a good message to users
[18:57]  could be added to articles too
[18:57]  interesting to
[18:58]  1) put on IG list
[18:58]  2) conference list
[18:58] * Najib has joined #i18N
[18:58]  where are the people we want to get who aren't coming hanging out
[18:59]  Shawn disclaimer: this is her opinion
[18:59]  3) related lists
[18:59]  not backed up with research
[19:00]  had one on Boeing site for a while
[19:00]  know that people don't like it, so didn't keep it on for too long
[19:01]  usability says people are bad at self-reporting
[19:01]  people know things are rong, but often can't express that
[19:02]  do we think we could get info could act on
[19:02]  but could find out more about who they are
[19:02]  would guess 90% of them are developers writing pages
[19:02]  who are you?
[19:02]  is there something you were looking forward that you didn't find?
[19:03]  what would you do with that data?
[19:03]  Sx would expect to get some confirmation of continuing or not in the same direction
[19:03]  worries about data for data's sake
[19:04]  eg Sx's work on Getting Started. If no neophytes, which could be confirmed by the survey, then this wouldn't be worth doing
[19:04]  but self-reporting issue
[19:05]  if 100% responses = experts, that doesn't entail all audience is expert
[19:05]  who were the WAI users
[19:05]  WAI doesn't have statistical numbers
[19:05]  most people who come don't know anything about it
[19:06]  based on informal number
[19:06]  how did WAI go about deciding who you were 
[19:06]  going to focus on 
[19:06]  WAI EO group is 20 active participants
[19:06]  some new, some long-standing
[19:07]  http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/
[19:08]  much more formal process than for most people
[19:08]  usability specialists on the group
[19:09]  http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2003/analysis-sum#users
[19:12]  http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2003/users#implications
[19:14]  People WAI want to attract are newbies
[19:15]  W3C newsletter to include questionnaire a few months from now
[19:15]  opportunity to reach a wide audience
[19:15]  also site comments
[19:15]  3/4 per week
[19:17] * MJDuerst has joined #i18n
[19:17]  WAI stuff buried in TR pages
[19:18]  gems that WAI have people can't find
[19:18]  very useful meeting, but lots more work for Rx
[19:18]  logo
[19:19]  6 minutes left before Rx must leave for another meeting
[19:21]  could there be a logo
[19:21]  could i18n requirements be included in the tool
[19:21]  would have to have very clear evaluations
[19:21]  WAI has these
[19:22]  self-reporting
[19:22]  people tend to over-state by 1 1/2
[19:22]  clarification: inclusion in validation tool, cf HTML, CSS
[19:23]  value of logo a mark of interest & support for i18n
[19:23]  could link to i18n site
[19:23]  means of promotion
[19:26]  [break]

[21:12]  NT presentation re issues for translation, etc.

[19:29]  Review of John Yunker's article - see wiki versions for minutes of discussion
[19:40]  Global Gateway Pull-downs
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[21:22]  work on WIKI - http://esw.w3.org/topic/geoFaq1  - see wiki versions for minutes of discussion
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[21:56] * Najib has quit IRC (Client exited)
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[Meeting ends]


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Received on Thursday, 17 March 2005 09:36:47 UTC

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