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Re: proposal to explicitly forbid <small> use as subheadings

From: Ian Devlin <ian@iandevlin.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 17:21:25 +0200
Message-ID: <CAOYOhSvca3CK75_rFfc6ucB1Kov3L6pyBjFYXn_mu7cn9hXhVA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Samuel Santos <samaxes@gmail.com>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
Bootstrap suggests a number of things that are wrong (e.g. using <i> for
icons!) so I wouldn't use that as a reason to keep it.

On 7 June 2013 16:45, Samuel Santos <samaxes@gmail.com> wrote:

> Lets not forget that a lot of sites already use <small> for sub-headings.
> Frameworks like Bootstrap suggest exactly that<http://twitter.github.io/bootstrap/components.html#typography>
> :
>
> <h1>Example page header <small>Subtext for header</small></h1>
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Santos
> http://www.samaxes.com/
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Adrian Roselli <
> Roselli@algonquinstudios.com> wrote:
>
>> > From: Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 5:06 AM
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> > hixie made a change to the whatwg spec in regards to <small>[1]
>> >
>> > <p>The <code>small</code> element must not be used for subheadings; for
>> that purpose, use the
>> > <code>hgroup</code> element.</p>
>> >
>> > As you may know changes to the whatwg spec are treated as proposals for
>> inclusion in the HTML spec,
>> > many are included as they are uncontroversial.
>> >
>> > Some like the above are not, as the WG needs to be made aware and
>> discussion needs to take place
>> > on the change.
>> >
>> > The second part of the sentence can be replaced with "follow the advice
>> on marking up Subheadings,
>> > subtitles, alternative titles and taglines [2]"
>> >
>> > but we need to decide if the "must not" requirement on use of <small>
>> is an appropriate conformance
>> > requirement for HTML?
>>
>> I don't think it should be "must not." There is no element for
>> subheadings, so excluding one over others seems capricious.
>>
>> We (or maybe just me) can make the same argument that an <em> is not a
>> subheading. Nor is an <i>. In each case, since there is no
>> semantic/structural element to indicate a sub-head, a developer is going to
>> choose an element that approximates a desired visual style. Sometimes the
>> developer might want to make it smaller (<small>), sometimes italic (<i>),
>> sometimes both (maybe both elements, maybe just one with more styles).
>>
>> If a sub-heading element is created, then this language should change to
>> reflect that.
>>
>> FWIW, I don't think any of those elements makes a good sub-head.
>>
>>
>> > [1] http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7869&to=7870
>> > [2]
>> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/common-idioms.html#sub-head
>>
>>
>
Received on Friday, 7 June 2013 15:21:55 UTC

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