W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > May 2011

Re: device independent title attribute support in browsers and follow up question

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 19:44:08 +0100
Message-ID: <BANLkTin-ZPULAcTVpfiRbhwBRPHbzFVBrA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, Charles McCathieNevile <chaals@opera.com>, David Bolter <dbolter@mozilla.com>, Adrian Bateman <adrianba@microsoft.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
Hi Maciej,

thanks for the reply,

So just to be clear, there are no concrete plans for webkit to provide
access to title attribute content for keyboard users?

note: I am referring to webkit cross platform.

regards
Stevef




On 7 May 2011 01:45, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:

>
> On May 5, 2011, at 2:26 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I originally requested feedback on April 19th, since the 2 vendors have
> indicated that they have no plans to implement device independent access to
> the title attribute.
>
> Can it be taken that the lack of response from Apple and Opera that they
> also have no plans?
>
>
> Apple does not generally give specific details regarding future product
> plans. I can tell you that in general we are interested in accessibility and
> strive to improve it over time.
>
> I can also tell you that, as far as current products go, Safari+VoiceOver
> on Mac OS X makes the title attribute very broadly accessible, including to
> blind or visually impaired users, and to users who have difficulties with
> using a pointing device. We will give consideration to how the experience
> can be improved when VoiceOver is not in use.
>
>
> FYI
> I published some data on title attribute usage on a few web pages,
> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/title-usage.html
>
> Of the pages checked approximatley 90% of title attribute content was a
> duplicate or similar to the text content of the element the title attribute
> was associated with.
>
> *A further question:*
>
> Do any vendors have plans to follow webkit's lead and display the title
> attribute content in place of an image when the image is not rendered?
>
>
> I'm not sure if this is intentional behavior or a bug. It definitely is
> intentional that we expose title to assistive technologies, and that
> consequently VoiceOver will use it when present for images that lack an alt
> attribute. It is also intentional that alt does not create a tooltip, which
> I believe is the primary intent of the HTML5 requirement that title and alt
> should not be displayed in the same way. Historically, some older browsers
> displayed alt text as a tooltip. This led to authors choosing alt text which
> was advisory in nature and suitable for use in a tooltip, rather than alt
> text which could act as a textual equivalent for the image. By this
> standard, it's not necessarily wrong to show the title text on a missing
> image when alt is missing, though it does seem the letter of the spec would
> forbid this behavior.
>
> I think the spec requirement should be changed to say something like "User
> agents must not present the contents of the alt attribute as if they were
> advisory information, e.g. as a tooltip." The requirement as stated seems
> wrong, because the spec does allow using title as a effectively a textual
> replacement when alt is not available.
>
>
> *Note:* if so the HTML5 spec will require updating as it currently forbids
> alt and title to be displayed in the same way :
>
> "The alt attribute does not represent advisory information. User agents
> must not present the contents of the alt attribute in the same way as
> content of the title attribute."
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element
>
> Details of  support in 2010 for title and alt display on images is
> available:
>
> alt and title content display in popular browsers
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2010/01/alt-and-title-content-display-in-popular-browsers/
> results:
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/alt-tests/alt-examples.html
> screenshots:
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/alt-tests/screenshots.html
>
> regards
> Stevef
>
>
> On 19 April 2011 09:37, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A recent decision by the HTML working group makes it conforming to
>> provide caption content for images whilst omitting the alt attribute.
>> This is problematic because while alt is designed to be presented to
>> users when the image cannot be viewed, and it is implemented as such.
>> The title attribute is for advisory information that should be
>> available to all users at any time. This is not the case and has never
>> been the case in any graphical browser.
>>
>> Can any of the representatives from browser vendors provide
>> information as to when the title attribute will be implemented so:
>>
>> * keyboard only users are aware that a title attribute is present on an
>> element?
>> * keyboard only users are able to access the title attribute content
>> on an element using the keyboard?
>> * The display of the title attribute content is configurable so that
>> users of screen magnifiers are able view title attribute content
>> within the viewport?
>> * access to title attribute content will be available on mobile and
>> touch browsers?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> with regards
>>
>> Steve Faulkner
>>
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
>
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Saturday, 7 May 2011 18:44:56 UTC

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