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(unknown charset) Re: ISSUE-155 counter proposal

From: (unknown charset) Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:15:15 +0100
To: (unknown charset) Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
Cc: (unknown charset) "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>, Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, public-html@w3.org
Message-ID: <20110323181515812313.6c50607d@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Sam Ruby, Wed, 23 Mar 2011 12:33:06 -0400:
> On 03/23/2011 12:00 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 7:03 AM, Leif Halvard Silli
>> <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>  wrote:
>>> Tab Atkins Jr., Wed, 23 Mar 2011 06:25:13 -0700:
>>>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:13 AM, Leif Halvard Silli
>>>> <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>  wrote:
>>>>> Ian Hickson, Wed, 23 Mar 2011 04:06:47 +0000 (UTC):
>>>>>   [...]
>>>>> 
>>>>>> RATIONALE
>>>>>   [...]
>>>>>> Non-CSS UAs [ snip ] can already draw table
>>>>>> borders on tables, so adding a presentational attribute for this 
>>>>>> purpose
>>>>>> adds nothing for them. [...]
>>>>> 
>>>>> What use is there in having non-CSS UAs that are able to draw borders,
>>>>> if authors aren't allowed to use the very HTML feature that triggers
>>>>> them to actually draw them?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Non-CSS UAS do not draw a single border unless one sets the border
>>>>> attribute to a non-zero value. The default styling of tables, is to not
>>>>> display the border.
>>>> 
>>>> The point is that non-CSS UAs can (and, apparently, *should*)
>>> 
>>> Were is the "apparently" coming from?
>> 
>> It seems apparent that non-CSS UAs should display a border on tables
>> automatically.
> 
> Any chance that the ISSUE-155 counter proposal could get updated to 
> propose a change to the draft specification mention this explicitly?  
> If not, would anybody be willing to propose a separate change 
> proposal that does this?

It would have to be clear from such a CP what is meant by "non-CSS user 
agent". Ian, as mentioned, see CSS UAs with CSS disabled as non-CSS 
UAs. [1]  Thus 'CSS disabled' must also be specified. 'CSS disabled' 
usually means that the UA is using the default stylesheet. So, such a 
CP should clarify that it is suggested a change to default stylesheet 
for tables. (Thus, a change to the rendering section of the spec.) (ANd 
not: The default stylesheet of a GUI browser is used both when CSS is 
abled and when CSS is disabled.)

On the con side: Layout tables. Many layout tables would start to show 
borders with such a rule. Would the UA vendors dare to make such a 
change? Remember that both a media=tty browser as well as a 
media=screen browser may want to discern between layout tables and data 
tables.

On the pro side: a table really SHOULD be a data table. And it makes 
more sense to disable border than to have to enable them.

[1] 
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-129#Bugs_8000_and_10448:_Allow_links_to_be_described_as_scroll_bars.2C_buttons_to_be_described_as_progress_bars.2C_etc
-- 
leif halvard silli
Received on Wednesday, 23 March 2011 17:15:52 GMT

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