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Re: Heading Element Order (h1 to h6)

From: James Graham <jg307@cam.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:22:00 +0000
Message-ID: <4756C218.10309@cam.ac.uk>
To: Karl Dubost <karl@w3.org>
CC: Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au>, public-html <public-html@w3.org>

Karl Dubost wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 5 déc. 2007 à 19:54, James Graham a écrit :
>> Per the requirements in section 3.8.11, <blockquote>s are opaque in 
>> terms of headings i.e. any headings inside blockquotes are not 
>> considered part of the main document's heading structure. Therefore 
>> they would presumably also be exempt from any conformance requirement 
>> on the document's headings.
> 
> Yes I understood what was written in the spec. They are not opaque for 
> XSLT or the DOM,

I don't see how XSLT or DOM are relevant really. They don't generally have much 
knowledge of the language semantics (DOM has some, I guess), but are just tree 
manipulation languages.

> and for style.

Well there are issues with style and the HTML 5 headings model but I'm not sure 
how it's related to whether or not <h6>foo</h6><h1>bar</h1> is conforming. (The 
issue is that styling headers consistently will require a pseudo-class that 
selects all nth level headers. We should put together a detailed proposal for this.)

> It creates challenges when you want to extract the information. I agree 
> with the definition of opacity, even if it's a bit loosy now.
> I should try to come up with a definition or better a series of test 
> cases and implementing it in
> http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html

Sure.

> 
>>> Use case 2
>>> I'm writing a long document, article. I'm not sure yet about the 
>>> sections and the level of headings.
>>> What the authoring tool should do?
>>> Create empty headings?
>>
>> I have no idea what you're trying to say here. If you're just saying 
>> that documents undergoing transition may not always be in conforming 
>> states, I don't see how that is unique to this issue, or surprising.  
>> Can you elaborate a bit please?
> 
> At which moment, Lachlan suggests that the document conforms? Think for 
> example a wiki which is in perpetual evolution.

Well like I said, this applies to many conformance requirement, not just heading 
order. For example if I have:
<dl>
[...A series of terms and definitions...]
<dt>Some term I want to define but haven't got around to defining yet</dt>
</dl>

that's non-conforming as the last <dt> isn't before a <dd>. That seems to be 
entirely analogous to the situation with headers in a document where the 
structure is under flux.

As a general rule, I would say that a document should be conforming any time 
that it is published to the web for general consumption. For a wiki like 
wikipedia that means that each time you click "save" you should have a 
conforming document, but each micro change you need to get between the document 
you start with and the one you end with need not leave you with a conforming 
document.

-- 
"Eternity's a terrible thought. I mean, where's it all going to end?"
  -- Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Received on Wednesday, 5 December 2007 15:22:13 GMT

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