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Re: [Bug 10838] New: Make <u> conforming.

From: Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:43:07 +0800
Cc: 中文HTML5同樂會ML <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>, "KangHao Lu (Kenny)" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <C9629013-073C-447F-97D1-2389F63DF53B@ethantw.net>
To: Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>
> 当然这没有解决专名号的需求。我想到的一个方法是用mark然后用CSS去underline它。不晓得这个方法实际吗?

KangHao Lu (Kenny) 在 bug 第一篇就提到,<mark> 是用來「強調」或使某段話「醒目」(highlight)所用。漢語專名號是為了方便閱讀、告知讀者畫線的是「專名」,但沒有強調或醒目的作用,所以我也覺得用 <mark> 是不合理的。

 <b> 標籤雖然語意上是指「粗體」,但 W3C 文件指出 <b> 標籤可以用來表示「非重點、亦非強調」的關鍵字、產品名稱等 [1],我覺得 <b class="pn"> 是比較好的作法,也比 <span 要來得短些。
b.pn {
    font-weight: inherit;
}

b.pn:lang(zh) {
    text-decoration: underline;
}

b.pn:lang(zh) + b.pn:lang(zh) {
    margin-left: .25em;
}

最後一項是讓相鄰兩專名底下的專名號不相連,這個作法有點問題,最好的方式如下圖,文字間沒有任何間隔,底線卻有:

這張圖是 Yahoo 注音輸入法的標詞功能,方便我們選字用的。我覺得這應該是瀏覽器實作 underline 的問題,Yahoo 做得出來瀏覽器也該做得出來。是不是有列入標準的可能呢?


> 同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
你指的是「文字標註音標」嗎?


http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/b.html




在 Sep 30, 2010 6:26 PM 時, Zi Bin Cheah 寫到:

> 专名号在大马算是没人用,大陆那边应该也少用。可能港台教科书有用,电纸书盛行也可能会推动使用率。
> 
> Ian拒绝用<u>语义化来用专名号其实我本人觉得是对的。试想想现在大家脑子里一看到<U>就想到underline, 重新教育有多难,而且大家都会继续滥用。
> 
> 当然这没有解决专名号的需求。我想到的一个方法是用mark然后用CSS去underline它。不晓得这个方法实际吗?
> 
> 同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
> 
> On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:46 AM, KangHao Lu (Kenny) wrote:
> 
>> 說明一下、、這算是對之前專名號的討論[1]做的回應,總之就是希望HTML5標準書至少不會把<u>放在「不合標準的標籤」[2] 而至少放在「將被拋棄但是合標準」[3]。很抱歉沒先在這個郵件群組得到共識,但是從10/1開始回報標準錯誤的過程會進入下一個階段所以我至少希望這個議題在這個時候被拿出來討論一下。我目前的看法是
>> 
>> - 加一個新標籤(像是<pn>之類的)真的很不可能
>> - 用<a>或<a href>(屬性沒值)是一種濫用
>> - <span class="pn"> 還是有點太長了
>> - Mike跟我講說<i>留下來的很大原因是因為西方會用斜體標船名,總不能發明一個<ship>吧。所以<u>是比較實在的,而且也不少人支持把<u>拿回來。
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 總之這個議題處理的狀況都會CC到這個列表啦,如果這個提案被回絕了大家也多多瞭解這個HTML5編輯Ian Hickson是怎麼做事的吧。議題回報裡我也提到了之前的討論(三年前了、、),有些為什麼<u>不見了但是<b><i>回來了的原因(主要就是<u>跟超連結的混亂問題)。不過那時候都沒什麼人提到專名號所以這次就順便提了一提啦!
>> 
>> 歡迎大家用HTML5 Bug Tracker的時候CC到這邊來。
>> 
>> 有空再多介紹一些HTML5的名人吧(像是Bug裡提到的Apple的Maciej[5])
>> 
>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2010Aug/threadl#msg184
>> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features
>> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features
>> [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maciej_Stachowiak
>> 
>> 此致
>> 
>> Kenny
>> 
>> On 2010/09/30, at 8:06, bugzilla@jessica.w3.org wrote:
>> 
>>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838
>>> 
>>>         Summary: Make <u> conforming.
>>>         Product: HTML WG
>>>         Version: unspecified
>>>        Platform: PC
>>>             URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-
>>>                  conforming-features
>>>      OS/Version: All
>>>          Status: NEW
>>>        Severity: major
>>>        Priority: P3
>>>       Component: HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson)
>>>      AssignedTo: ian@hixie.ch
>>>      ReportedBy: kennyluck@w3.org
>>>       QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org
>>>              CC: mike@w3.org, public-html-wg-issue-tracking@w3.org,
>>>                  public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org,
>>>                  public-html-ig-zh@w3.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This was discussed in a long thread[1] three years ago. There was no consensus
>>> and no response from the editor, but since some people like Maciej think we can
>>> make <u> at least conforming[2], I would like to raise this bug to catch the
>>> editor's attention.
>>> 
>>> Proper name mark, in Chinese [3] is a use case that was slightly mentioned in
>>> the thread (see also an example picture[4]). The purpose of this mark is to
>>> highlight *every* proper noun in some text to help the reader break words,
>>> cause Chinese people don't use spaces for word breaking. Although it is no
>>> longer popular recently, proper name mark is still used in some textbooks in
>>> Taiwan (esp. children's Chinese textbook) and Hong Kong. Because the purpose
>>> and frequency of using "proper name mark" in a piece of text is similar to code
>>> highlighting, I personally don't think it's appropriate to use <mark> for this
>>> purpose since the spec says "This (<mark>) is separate from syntax
>>> highlighting, for which span is more appropriate." But then <span class="pn">
>>> is probably too long. This is not yet a very prevalent use case because proper
>>> name marks are often used in combination with vertical text and vertical text
>>> is not yet popular on the Web.
>>> 
>>> While I do strongly agree that an underlined text which is not a hyperlink
>>> confuses the user in his/her browsing experience, there are HTML user agents
>>> for which browsing the Web isn't the main purpose and hence the user might not
>>> get confused. e-book readers are such examles.
>>> 
>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0307
>>> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_name_mark
>>> [4] http://www.go8.com.tw/files/4168%200004.jpg
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Configure bugmail: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
>>> ------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>>> You are on the CC list for the bug.
>>> 
>> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌
> 
> Web Evangelist
> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /
> 
> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
> 
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Received on Thursday, 30 September 2010 11:50:01 GMT

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